Pull Cords?

[Bo_Beck]

Just curious what diameter pull cords are most frequently being used when using the "Single Rope/ Biner or Knot Block Technique"?

It seems to me that the technique is being used quite commonly and I'm a bit confused as to why?

Pine Creek has a longest drop of 100'. 100' of 9mm rope weighs what? Maybe 5 lbs?.....ok........100' of 6mm cord maybe 2-3 lbs? So if I carried 1-100' 9mm and 1-100' 6mm, I have saved having to carry maybe 3lbs?

Maybe I'm not getting the drift, but I would much rather descend on 2 ropes than 1 if possible, plus the wear is distributed more uniformly on 2 vs 1. In addition if for some reason I had 1 of the ropes snag on a previous rappel and had to chop the rope to continue???? I still have enough rope and better chance to complete my hike.

Clue me in? Just curious as to why this technique has pretty much become the norm?

[rockgremlin]

Good question. I think it might come down to economics. One rope + one pull cord = cheaper than two ropes. Plus most people buy ropes in 150' to 200' lengths, not 100'. So in order to have a length of 100', you gotta either purchase it that way, or chop up one of your 50m or 60m ropes.

But you definitely have a good point.

[Scott Card]

I don't disagree with the economics being a reason but folks, our lives are literally "on the line". Seems like a cheap life insurance policy to buy a second rope. I agree with Bo. Go double almost always. I rarely use a single line. I use it when the drops is into a water filled pot hole when we can see to extend the rope to the right length to avoid a water disconnect. I have admittedly employed a single line on the second to the last rap in Heaps due to our 300 foot ropes being used on the final rap and not having 2-200 footers. My group and I usually have at least two times the rope needed for the longest rap and usually more like three times the length for the longest rap. Yet another reason I like larger groups (4 plus canyoneers) You can carry more rope. You have to carry a pull cord, why not just carry a rope instead? I wonder what the weight difference really is? Also, rope bags are a big help due to the ability to extend rope to the right length and then chucking the bag or clipping it on to your belt. You can carry longer ropes but not spend so much time coiling the unused rope. Just a couple of rambling thoughts.

[oldno7]

good question Bo

and I'm guilty--

I have a 60m canyon rope and a 60m 6mm pullcord.

I bought them with the idea of things like the spry entrance rappel

the behunin last rappel,etc. with a 300' rope we're good for only 150'

I prefer not to use a pullcord if I have enough rope doubled.

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?

maybe we need to work out more to carry the additional 3-5lbs.

p.s. Bo--I bought the pullcord from you,does that help.

then theres Tues.--Rich and I are doing a new canyon(no beta)

we packed 3-200' ropes---used 160' of 1,damm that was heavy the last 3 miles out

[jumar]

Just curious what diameter pull cords are most frequently being used when using the "Single Rope/ Biner or Knot Block Technique"?

It seems to me that the technique is being used quite commonly and I'm a bit confused as to why?

Pine Creek has a longest drop of 100'. 100' of 9mm rope weighs what? Maybe 5 lbs?.....ok........100' of 6mm cord maybe 2-3 lbs? So if I carried 1-100' 9mm and 1-100' 6mm, I have saved having to carry maybe 3lbs?

Maybe I'm not getting the drift, but I would much rather descend on 2 ropes than 1 if possible, plus the wear is distributed more uniformly on 2 vs 1. In addition if for some reason I had 1 of the ropes snag on a previous rappel and had to chop the rope to continue???? I still have enough rope and better chance to complete my hike.

Clue me in? Just curious as to why this technique has pretty much become the norm?

I've often wondered the same thing. I almost always double strand. But it might be just because that's what I've always done in climbing and old habits die hard.

[Iceaxe]

This has been one of my main complaints with some of the schooling available for local canyoneers. The schools teach a lot of different techniques for canyoneering, tools for the toolbox I think they call it..... but the students do not get enough practical experience to really understand when and why to use each technique.

[stefan]

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?

i don't see a problem with using 8mm rope. also, it's to save weight and volume. the weight differential also is important when the rope becomes saturated with water.

8mm rope is strong enough to use for canyoneering purposes. of course one needs to be mindful of the condition of the rope and stop using it when it's become questionable. one use that comes to mind, for which the difference is more pronounced, between 8mm and something larger, is jugging up a rope which hasn't not be protected from the rock. the jugging motion on an 8mm can likely/possibly wear down the sheath on an 8mm more rapidly than a larger rope.

[hank moon]

i always use SRT when possible/appropriate due to following practical advantages:

- lighter, more compact
- faster, easier to rig + inspect
- significantly faster when leapfrogging w/rope bags

for my use, DRT only brings disadvantages

that said, DRT has its own set of mainly theoretical advantages which are of lower priority for me than the practical advs of SRT:

- less chance of rope cutting
- more friction
- backup rope if needed
- ropes last longer

DRT highly recommended for beginner and intermediate canyoneers who have limited experience with SRT. Start w/DRT to gain experience , then explore SRT if so inclined. YMMV, WYA, YSYR, etc.

[Bo_Beck]

good question Bo

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?

maybe we need to work out more to carry the additional 3-5lbs.

p.s. Bo--I bought the pullcord from you,does that help.

then theres Tues.--Rich and I are doing a new canyon(no beta)

we packed 3-200' ropes---used 160' of 1,damm that was heavy the last 3 miles out

I'd prefer to use doubled 8mm over single 9mm any day. 36kn vs 20kn sets my mind at ease even though its overkill either way, but then I like the friction as well!

Glad you can put it to good use! Sounds fun...a first descent.

First trip I made in H@#ps Canyon we (Mike, Mark and I) carried over 1100' of rope with us. All of it being dynamic 10.5mm except the 2-300' chunk's of 8mm accessory cord. Now I only carry 700' of 8mm thru said canyon.

I guess that my concern is that it has become common practice to use single rope technique whether needed or not. Certainly there are times that it comes into play, but if one has enough rope to do double rope, then I support this technique.

[oldno7]

what about the other trend to 8mm rope to save weight?

i don't see a problem with using 8mm rope. also, it's to save weight and volume. the weight differential also is important when the rope becomes saturated with water.

8mm rope is strong enough to use for canyoneering purposes. of course one needs to be mindful of the condition of the rope and stop using it when it's become questionable. one use that comes to mind, for which the difference is more pronounced, between 8mm and something larger, is jugging up a rope which hasn't not be protected from the rock. the jugging motion on an 8mm can likely/possibly wear down the sheath on an 8mm more rapidly than a larger rope.

whats the differance in rope strength?

isn't the 8mm rated around 2800lbs?

most 9+mm are over 5000lbs.

so generically speaking--

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

[hank moon]

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

because it is sufficient for the task (for some).

keep in mind that the strength of harnesses, 'biners, etc. is largely driven by rock climbing where higher forces are involved than those experienced in canyoneering.

[oldno7]

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

because it is sufficient for the task (for some).

keep in mind that the strength of harnesses, 'biners, etc. is largely driven by rock climbing where higher forces are involved than those experienced in canyoneering.

Hi Hank

I'm asking this because I don't know--

If a have a 200lb rock climber on dynamic line vs. a 200lb canyoneer

on static line--if I drop both people 10' (shock load)the rock climber will exert less force on the rope? What about force on anchor?

and these forces will not exceed a 8mm ropes limits?

like I said I'm asking because I don't know.

[hank moon]

If a have a 200lb rock climber on dynamic line vs. a 200lb canyoneer

on static line--if I drop both people 10' (shock load)the rock climber will exert less force on the rope? What about force on anchor?

like I said I'm asking because I don't know.

play w/this a bit:

http://en.petzl.com/petzl/Conseil?Conseil=56

of course, high forces can be experienced in canyoneering...esp. with the ultrastatic ropes (e.g. canyon pro)

[Bo_Beck]

if our biners,harness,descending device,rapides,webbing are all rated

over 5000lbs why do you want a rope with little more than 1/2 that strength?

because it is sufficient for the task (for some).

keep in mind that the strength of harnesses, 'biners, etc. is largely driven by rock climbing where higher forces are involved than those experienced in canyoneering.

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall? I for one hope that companies dealing with the construction of "Canyoneering" gear don't decide to skimp on gear designed specifically for "canyoneering". I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two

[price1869]

just 2 cents here:

I have yet to hear of a rope breaking - causing a canyoneering accident. If you're not comfortable using pull cords, don't. Best to concentrate on technique and let BW and Edelweis deal with the breaking strength of a single strand of 8 or 9mm rope.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[hank moon]

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall?

a lead fall can generate up to 10 kN. The scenario above, prolly no more than 4 kN.

I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two

Point is: experts can make do with a lower safety factor due to greater experience, knowledge, etc. Beginners, etc. should maintain a higher safety factor. It's not a slam...just the fax, ma'am.

[oldno7]

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall?

a lead fall can generate up to 10 kN. The scenario above, prolly no more than 4 kN.

I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two

Point is: experts can make do with a lower safety factor due to greater experience, knowledge, etc. Beginners, etc. should maintain a higher safety factor. It's not a slam...just the fax, ma'am.

so experts cannot make mistakes and if they do they shock load a rope and anchor less than begginners?

your lead fall example above pretty much uses up the limits of a 8mm line.
what if that line is on a semi sharp edge?

[Bo_Beck]

So the 220lb (1kn) guy rapelling the last drop in Pine Creek, loses control and his friend at the bottom also 220 lbs (1kn) immediately employs the "conditional belay" with all his force and stops his friend from smacking the bottom, doesn't create forces similar to those that might be present in a lead fall?

a lead fall can generate up to 10 kN. The scenario above, prolly no more than 4 kN.

Go bounce on a scale sometime Hank...let me know if you can generate more than double your mass?

I call it "Safety Factor".....you call it beginner/ intermediate...we will all call it what we will! You use one rope...i'll use one rope unless I have two

Point is: experts can make do with a lower safety factor due to greater experience, knowledge, etc. Beginners, etc. should maintain a higher safety factor. It's not a slam...just the fax, ma'am.

[oldno7]

I'm not a spokesman for the ACA, although I am a member.

couple points:

I strongly believe in the ACA and it's teaching.

having said that I think there is a lot of excellant training

going on but not all who are trained get the immediate chance

to apply the newly learned craft,training does no good and is lost

if not applied on a frequent and regular basis.

Experience is our best teacher but experience is best followed by instruction,(helps to have a good experience.)In this sport a bad experience can easily be fatal.

I can't imagine anyone having every tool for every circumstance,if thats true then we can all do better.

which tools do we need? the one that most effeciently solves our current problem.(sounds like infinity to me)

Sorry for the hi-jack Bo but there was earlier mention of toolbox,maybe this is a good read on the subject.http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...ead.php?t=1742

I've got a lot to learn but I try to get in 1-2 canyons a week for practice.
building me up a "toolbox"

anyone going through the Cedar area give me a holler, I'm always up for a canyon.(bring your toolbox,we'll compare)

[Iceaxe]

There are people misusing the tools in their toolbox and others who don't know how to use the tools (or don't even own the tools)

Hard to argue with that....

And I don't have a good solution for correcting the problem, but I agree that it exists and it is a problem.