Newbie questions

[gwest]

Hopefully headed to the Subway this weekend, my first technical slot canyon. A few questions:
1)flash floods, at what point do people cancel their plans? This sunday there's a 20% chance of tstorms. do people do slot canyons with that forecast?
2)permits. we didnt do the lottery thing for the subway cuz we just decided, what time would we have to get there saturday morning to have a shot at one of the 20 walk in permits for sunday?

thanks for any help!

[stefan]

Hopefully headed to the Subway this weekend, my first technical slot canyon. A few questions:
1)flash floods, at what point do people cancel their plans? This sunday there's a 20% chance of tstorms. do people do slot canyons with that forecast?

i'd have a backup plan for that day and follow the forecast through the park and decide at the last minute.


2)permits. we didnt do the lottery thing for the subway cuz we just decided, what time would we have to get there saturday morning to have a shot at one of the 20 walk in permits for sunday?
[/quote]

here are the hours for the backcountry desk

May 27 through September 1
Zion Canyon, 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.
Kolob Canyons, 8:00 a.m to 5:00 p.m.


a line forms beforehand. given it's saturday ... perhaps pretty early. others prolly will chime in with their experience. subway is top choice, so ...

[rockgremlin]

YA, what Stefan said...If you're gonna grab walk-in permits, get there EARLY!

When we did the Subway last weekend, there was a 20% chance of t-storms. We assumed the weather would cooperate, and went forward with our plans. If the weather does decide to turn nasty, don't risk it. Go do something else. It's a judgement call that's made the day of really. In monsoon season, the trick is to get on the trail very early, because if it's gonna cloud up and rain, it will typically do it in the early afternoon.

Have fun, be safe!

[Iceaxe]

As for flashfloods in the Subway I would just plan an early start and if things look good in the morning then go for it. The Subway does offer plenty of places to safely sit out a storm. The second half of you day will be spent in a wide drainage where flashfloods are probably only a minor concern.

Walk-in Subway permits are real hit and miss. Orderville is a nice back-up plan if Subway permits are all gone.

Have fun and let us know how it went when you get back.

[Scott Card]

I went in the Subway with a 40% chance of rain the day before the big flooding in Virgin, the same drainage. The skies cleared up just as we were descending the chimney. We had a beautiful hot sunny day. By 4 p.m. the clouds were gathering on the horizon. With different clouds and humidity I would have turned back. I sometimes do this hike on a "lets start and see" basis. This was one of those days.

A couple of rules I live (so far) by. First, track the weather closely for about 48 hours prior to the hike to know the direction of the clouds and so forth. By track the weather, look at radar and jet stream and low pressure systems and which side of the system Zion is sitting on. It is weird to look to the east at times for the clouds when the jet stream suggests to look to the west. Second, know the drainage and where the rain needs to hit to flash. The Subway route would pretty well have to take a direct hit to be in trouble in the couple of spots of concern. Third, I prepare me and my group to bail if necessary which means a back up plan or to bail and reverse course anywhere prior to the boulder obstacal. Fourth, I have a silent eye to the sky all the way through and try to get a feel for the air the morning of the hike. I have lived in Utah most of my life and humidity is not an everyday thing here. I also keep it quiet so as not to make new folks nervous. I have bailed on hikes when the hike required 10-12 hours hike time and the sky was pretty clear but the air was very heavy with humidity and the forecast was bad. In other words, based on the canyon, we would have been in the business (due to a later start time) when the prime hours for flooding would occur. The humidity was too high for my comfort level given the forecast. Fifth, August means early starts to me. Finally, the canyon will be there tomorrow. If it doesn't feel right, do something else.

Now as to the Subway proper, what Shane said. One of the safer ones out there and the drainage is localized. So many things I could comment on like group speed, dynamics, skill level...etc. but I fear I have said to much already.

[gwest]

Thanks for all your advice!! Very good to know. Now that I think about the descriptions I've been reading about the subway, it makes sense that it's a safer one, good to know its a fairly small drainage. I'll let you know how it goes!