Rowdy OHV crowd alleged

[hank moon]

I agree that the editorials are COMPLETELY biased against motorized recreation

could somebody point me to an online xample of the bias?

[UtahFire]

I agree that the editorials are COMPLETELY biased against motorized recreation

could somebody point me to an online xample of the bias?

Anyone who reads the Tribune with regularity knows that their editorial board and staff writers have an anti-OHV agenda. Do a search on the Tribune website on any of the following keywords: "OHV, ATV, ORV, SUWA, Southern Utah Wilderness, RS2477, Factory Butte, Kane County, BLM, Arch Canyon or wilderness. Show me any recent article or editorial which comes up which demonstrates a positive tone about motorized recreation. There was one feature they did a few years ago which presented a few positive arguments. But by in large they are vastly more negative. In fact, if you find any positive editorials or articles, please post them. Since you have already seen that members on this board have no problems finding plenty of negative ones, prove me wrong.


I know Joe Baird personally (our daughters are friends). I have a pretty good feel for his political bent on this issue. I can assure you the Tribune writers "cherry pick" press releases from anti-OHV groups. You will also see they provide far more quote space to anti-OHV groups like SUWA. I can assure you that Heidi McIntosh's cell phone number is on the Tribune environmental writers contact list.

[Cachesoul]

It's not an issue of fairness and access. The issue is respect to other public land users and containing a public nuisance. The fact is when my weekends get ruined by noise... the laws need to be be established. If you dont want the laws, prevail on your fellow ATV riders to show respect.... period.

[Sombeech]

If I want peace and solitude when I go hiking & backpacking, I just accept the fact that I'll have to hike where there aren't ATV trails. This concept seems to work for me.

And when I don't even want to see other hikers, I accept the idea of hiking a little longer up the trail, in an off peak season, or an unpopular trail. This concept seems to work for me also.

If I camp near a trailhead, I can't imagine blaming automobiles, ATVs, and small children for the noise. That would be stupid of me.

If hiking is about the serenity, beauty, tranquility, and peace, I'm not going to hike near ATV accessible lands. Sometimes you have to drop the "right or wrong" concept, and just skip the argument altogether by hiking somewhere smart. You'll get more accomplished.

[Cachesoul]

I hear (and practice) all that you say. It is still sad to visit the places we camped when I was a kid that are now noisy, dusty unpleasant places to go. Where does it end? What areas will be compromised next? Stronger limits do need to be established.

[Sombeech]

There will always be A-holes that break the rules, or are impolite. But I know where I can go that won't be interrupted by ATVs and offroad vehicles. I think it's fair to say that we should expect noise & dust at the easy-to-get locations.

[scoutabout]

There are a-holes that disrespect others and break the rules while hiking, mountain biking, and driving on the highway.

Should we close every hiking trail, mountain biking trail, and highway? No, we should work to enforce the laws and educate the minority that is causing problems. Same for OHV use.

The anti-motorized groups have done a good job of convincing the public that if a few people disobey the laws, then everyone should be punished. We don't do that in other parts of society, why would we do that for OHV recreation?

[Cachesoul]

Again, the actions are not punishment, they just seem like it because of the pardigm you are in. They are in actuality containment of a public nuisance.

Im not saying off road use should be banned all together; I am saying there is a right and wrong place for everything. Adding noise and dust to our most beautiful places is not the right place and it impacts everyone else.

Also, it is more than hikers that get impacted. Also are the people who want dispersed car camping but cant because of the constant 4 wheeler traffic. I ask who is limiting the experience and access to whom?.

Obviously I am talking about the small percentage that break the rules, but if we address problem areas, it's not impacting the respectful users in my opinion.

[Sombeech]

But the argument isn't about ATVs in the parking lot and around National Forest campgrounds.

It's out in the wilderness, where kids & car camping isn't likely to happen.

For instance, if somebody went to the sand dunes for a nice quiet afternoon, I think we know who the idiot would be.

[scoutabout]

Again, the actions are not punishment, they just seem like it because of the pardigm you are in. They are in actuality containment of a public nuisance.

Public nuisance?

Im not saying off road use should be banned all together; I am saying there is a right and wrong place for everything. Adding noise and dust to our most beautiful places is not the right place and it impacts everyone else.

Where exactly are you talking about, or are you just repeating some propoganda you read at suwa.org? What is a wrong place for motorized recreation? Wilderness? I agree. Wilderness by definition has no improved roads or trails, so there isn't any OHV activity in ACTUAL Wilderness.

Also, it is more than hikers that get impacted. Also are the people who want dispersed car camping but cant because of the constant 4 wheeler traffic. I ask who is limiting the experience and access to whom?

You have obviously never been to AF Canyon on a weekend. Over 100 dispersed campsites within 25 yards of a road that sees 500-600 OHV users every weekend.

Obviously I am talking about the small percentage that break the rules, but if we address problem areas, it's not impacting the respectful users in my opinion.

I feel the same way about hikers. I hate to go backpacking and find tp-bombs, trash, off-trail damage, and other unsightly disturbances. It makes me very irritated. These irresponsible users are disturbing my backcountry experience with their disrespectful behavior. Instead of closing everything, let's work to educate them and enforce the rules already in place.

[Cachesoul]

Yes, Nuisance is an apt. Definition;

[Udink]

The fact is when my weekends get ruined by noise...

Is is the noise that ruins your weekend, or the way you feel about the noise? I'll bet the noise doesn't bother the ATV riders.

[quote=Cachesoul]Yes, Nuisance is an apt. Definition;

[Cachesoul]

>>>I'll bet the noise doesn't bother the ATV riders.

Well now that demonstrates a limited perspective.

BTW - I do ride a 4 wheeler around my pasture and to plow snow; I dont feel it appropriate to turn the mountains into my personal roller coaster, compromising the experience of others.

Get this straight, noise and dust is counter productive to the purpose of getting away from it all! We remain at an impasse.

[Udink]

Well now that demonstrates a limited perspective.

Maybe so, but no more so than your own perspective that ATVs are a nuisance. Obviously the hundreds of thousands of ATV riders in the state would disagree with you.

Don't get me wrong, I totally see your point, though I'm not sure you've stated what solution (if any) you're advocating (presumably you want ATVs restricted to non-scenic areas?). I'm primarily a hiker, and I haven't had a single weekend ruined by "noise and dust." There's no shortage of places to go where you can get away from motorized recreation, but the fact is where there are roads, you're gonna have to share.

[stefan]

New group seeks tougher off-road penalties
By Lourdes Medrano
Arizona Daily Star


Calling off-road vehicles the top threat to public lands, a group of former government workers is pushing for tougher penalties for those who trample natural resources.

The newly-formed Rangers for Responsible Recreation comes armed with data from the U.S. Bureau of Land Management showing rampant abuse from off-road vehicles in Arizona and four other Western states.

"Off-road vehicles are causing major damage to watersheds and streambeds, and to plant life and wildlife," said former BLM director Jim Baca. He is part of the group seeking heftier fines, confiscation of off-road vehicles, and suspension of hunting and fishing licenses.
While acknowledging the problem, some off-road vehicle enthusiasts stressed that many of them promote safe riding to preserve access to trails.

"Usually, it's a small group spoiling it for everybody," said Brian Blangsted, who has been riding dirt bikes in the open desert of Southern Arizona for about three decades.

BLM statistics show that off-road vehicles are a serious law enforcement concern. The federal agency released the data recently to Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, which organized the current effort to shed light on off-road vehicle problems.
BLM numbers from 2004 to the first half of 2007 for Arizona, Nevada, California, New Mexico and Utah show more than 6,600 violations involving off-road vehicles in hit-and-run and reckless driving incidents. More than 2,300 violations stem from illegal use of closed trails and other areas that are off-limits to the public.

With slightly more than 600 violations, Arizona ranks fourth behind California, Utah and Nevada.

Ecologist Daniel Patterson, Southwest director of Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, deemed the data conservative.
The numbers reflect "a much higher problem" not just in BLM areas but also on other public lands, he noted.
Off-road vehicle enthusiasts routinely plow through restricted areas, ignoring trail markers and, in some cases, sparking wildfires in the drought-stricken West. They also challenge limited enforcement resources, Patterson said.

"We need harsher penalties that will deter reckless off-roading," including jail time for repeat offenders, Patterson said. His group's executive director, Jeff Ruch, said existing penalties

[stefan]

fines+confiscation. i agree with utahfire, but i'd put the fines upwards of $2000-8000 for illegal off-roading ... closer to $5000 to start out with.

[scoutabout]

>>>I'll bet the noise doesn't bother the ATV riders.

Well now that demonstrates a limited perspective.

BTW - I do ride a 4 wheeler around my pasture and to plow snow; I dont feel it appropriate to turn the mountains into my personal roller coaster, compromising the experience of others.

Get this straight, noise and dust is counter productive to the purpose of getting away from it all! We remain at an impasse.

Hikers who cut switchbacks, leave tp-bombs, toss trash, and have backcountry fires during restrictions are a public nuisance. Let's remove all human access from public land. Until you want to do that, you're just discriminating.

[scoutabout]

fines+confiscation. i agree with utahfire, but i'd put the fines upwards of $2000-8000 for illegal off-roading ... closer to $5000 to start out with.

Make it $10,000. It doesn't affect responsible users, so I'm all for it.

[stefan]

fines+confiscation. i agree with utahfire, but i'd put the fines upwards of $2000-8000 for illegal off-roading ... closer to $5000 to start out with.

Make it $10,000. It doesn't affect responsible users, so I'm all for it.

precisely ... the higher the fine, the more to fund enforcement. just thinking the start-out-fine increase, you know, so folks can get a taste of the penalty ... then to increase it sharply to ensure that someone thinks twice. but hell if they deem it reasonable to jack it up that high to begin with, then so be it.

in utah with the increase in fines for speeding in school zones ... yeah, that got people to quit speeding in school zones real quick like ... course there's infinitely more enforcement in school zones within cities than in the open space of utah.

[scoutabout]

The problem is that the current fine structure sends the money towards something completely unrelated. Not enforcement, not maintenance, not education, something else. I can't remember what, but it is completely unrelated. I'd like to see fine money be spent on education, enforcement and trail maintenance along with them being MUCH higher.