Rowdy OHV crowd alleged

[stefan]

'Monstrous' problem?
Rowdy OHV crowd alleged
Report says Utah's 1,336 violations is second only to California since 2004
By Patty Henetz
The Salt Lake Tribune

Off-road vehicle drivers are becoming a "monstrous" law enforcement problem in the West, particularly in Utah, according to a federal crime statistics analysis released Wednesday.

Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, an advocacy group of current and former federal workers, crunched U.S. Bureau of Land Management off-highway vehicle crime statistics for the past four years and found that only California posted more violations than Utah.

"America needs stronger penalties to deter reckless off-roading," said Southwest PEER Director Daniel Patterson, an ecologist in Tucson, Ariz., who formerly worked with BLM. "The rangers are frustrated. They are on the front lines."

The numbers show that from 2004 through the first half of 2007, federal rangers on BLM land in Utah issued 1,336 off-road violations for hit and run, reckless driving, driving under the influence of alcohol, illegal off-roading on closed trails or off-limit areas and other crimes.

But OHV advocates scoffed at the statistics, saying they reflect BLM law enforcement priorities, so naturally the numbers would skew to OHV abuses.

The violations "are more or less the only crime because there's not much crime on public lands," said Steve Jackson, president of Utah Shared Access Alliance.

"If hikers are up there committing crimes, they're not likely to get tickets because that's not where [rangers] are focusing," added long-time OHV advocate Rainer Huck, now a mayoral candidate in Salt Lake City.

The PEER report is the second pointing out OHV abuses released since the BLM reported near-riot conditions at Juab County's Little Sahara Recreation Area during the Easter holiday in April, when an estimated 35,000 people visited the dunes.

Two nights in a row, melees involving about 1,000 people each took rangers several hours to control. Rangers ejected about 200 people from Sand Mountain, where ATV riders are allowed to motor 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Family areas away from Sand Mountain weren't affected.

Ed Patrovsky, a PEER member who retired from BLM law enforcement after more than 15 years on the job, said his experiences as a ranger in the West were mostly confined to issuing tickets for OHV infractions and light misdemeanors. More serious encounters included vandalism, felony warrants, fights and assaults.

"I've had bottles thrown at me, things of that nature," he said. "It can be awful scary out there when you're working by yourself and there are hundreds of these people and a riot mentality can develop."

BLM statistics for 2004-2007 obtained by PEER under the Freedom of Information Act show in the five-state area of California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah there were more than 6,600 off-road violations for hit and run, reckless driving, and other crimes, and more than 2,300 incidents of illegal off-roading on closed trails or off-limit areas.

But compared with the number of OHV users, those numbers look small to Huck. In Utah alone, he estimated that in addition to the more than 200,000 registered OHVs, there are at least that many more that aren't registered due to the expense.

Add in four-wheel drive trucks and cars, dual-sport motorcycles and other off-road vehicles and the number comes to 600,000 OHVs in Utah, Huck said.

"The BLM refuses to accept that and plan for that. Their only response is
to close land," Huck said.

Jackson of the Shared Access Alliance said his group and others are working to educate OHV riders about their legal obligations.

"We feel there is an opportunity for everyone to work together and share the West, not close off any area to any one group," Jackson said. "You don't want to be the guy riding off-trail when a responsible group passes by."

I've had bottles thrown at me, things of that nature. . . . It can be awful scary out there when you're working by yourself and there are hundreds of these people and a riot mentality can develop.

- Ed Patrovsky, a PEER member who retired from BLM law enforcement after more than 15 years on the job

If hikers are up there committing crimes, they're not likely to get tickets because that's not where [rangers] are focusing.
- Long-time OHV advocate Rainer Huck, now a mayoral candidate in Salt Lake City

[stefan]

"If hikers are up there committing crimes, they're not likely to get tickets because that's not where [rangers] are focusing," added long-time OHV advocate Rainer Huck

another 'well hikers do it too' whine. sorry, i couldn't resist this one ... just what and how many violations are hikers involved with compared with these listed in the article?

"1,336 off-road violations for hit and run, reckless driving, driving under the influence of alcohol, illegal off-roading on closed trails or off-limit areas. "

The violations "are more or less the only crime because there's not much crime on public lands," said Steve Jackson

well, they're not the only crimes on public land. in some our national parks there are many more and some far more dangerous crimes occuring. but perhaps this is more true on the less attractive BLM land.

[MY T PIMP]

I noticed stefan made a post in the 4X4 forum, and silly me, I assumed he had some positive recreational contributions.

[stefan]

aww, too bad you didn't notice the positive contribution(s). i'd say scout's being quoted in the paper is a positive contribution.

wasn't really going to comment on the article, but i just thought the comment by huck was funny as hell ... as i said ... couldn't resist.

[scoutabout]

I posted these comments on sltrib.com, and Patty is making a correction to the article. Thought everyone would find this interesting.

A few facts for everyone here. If you read the press release by PEER upon which this article is based, some interesting numbers appear. While I'm sure it's not the conclusion they want to represent, the BLM's own numbers are very clear.

The majority of the "crimes" committed were for OHV registration, not wearing a helmet, or having a broken tail or head light.

The number of incidents has declined since 2004 from over 3000 incidents per year to under 2600 in 2006.

There were 1336 incidents in Utah over the 3.5 year period, so about 382 incidents per year on average. Conservatively, there are 200,000 OHV's registered in Utah (this doesn't include 4x4's and dual-sport bikes). Do the math and you see that only 0.19% of OHV users have committed an offense over the period in question. That truly represents a "few bad apples." And this little calculation is the low end of the scale. If you want to get mathematical, we would consider the number of times each vehicle is used each year and include 4x4's and dual-sport bikes. So, less that 0.2% of OHV users are irresponsible? That's a true minority.

However, that doesn't absolve the motorized community's responsiblity to stamp out irresponsible behavior in the last 0.2%. It's a problem that groups like USA-ALL, U4WDA, UTMA, and others are working hard to resolve. Instead of forcing closures through lawsuits costly to the taxpayers, groups like SUWA and their friends could donate 1% of their annual income to education and enforcement programs to help resolve this issue.

Making hateful and rage-filled statements on the Internet isn't going to solve any problems.

OHV'ers don't want unrestricted access to every inch of public. Not all OHV'ers are fat and out of shape. Not all OHV'ers are irresponsible. Please don't believe the propaganda.

Oh, I forget to mention one important fact from the BLM data. This article states: "The numbers show that from 2004 through the first half of 2007, federal rangers on BLM land in Utah issued 1,336 off-road violations for hit and run..." However, there were no incidents of hit and run in Utah listed in the BLM data. There was one single incident cited in California during the time period. Hopefully, this will be corrected in tomorrows edition of the Trib as I am sure they want to make every effort to keep their reporting as accurate as possible.

[scoutabout]

My favorite part is that these numbers are UNDENIABLE PROOF that it is a VERY SMALL minority of OHV users who are recreating irresponsibly. Thanks to PEER for bringing these stats to my attention.

[scoutabout]

another 'well hikers do it too' whine. sorry, i couldn't resist this one ... just what and how many violations are hikers involved with compared with these listed in the article?

You're right, the "they do it too" argument isn't a valid excuse. I think Huck was trying to point out the bias, but it's irrelevant to this article.

We'd have to do a separate FOIA request to find out about incidents of hikers committing "crimes" on public lands. Of course, PEER wasn't interested in those numbers.

Their original press release is a hilarious twisting of facts and conclusions. I wish we had an Arlington, Virginia PR firm to represent the motorized community.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

My favorite part is that these numbers are UNDENIABLE PROOF that it is a VERY SMALL minority of OHV users who are recreating irresponsibly. Thanks to PEER for bringing these stats to my attention.

Statistics are bull. However, 2 four wheelers out of every 1000 is still A LOT, considering the damage 2 4x4's can do over time. Of course its a minority, but that minority is killing the rest of y'alls reputation and creating visible proof against you for your enemies in SUWA and the govt.


I am a four-wheeler rider who is against USA ALL but also generally despises SUWA. While I realize a large majority of ATVers are cool and and I'm friends with many of them, I've also found more than a few ATV recreationists who fit the stereotype you guys so adamantly try to DENY and they have seriously turned me off of the idea, one that I used to be pretty down with. Now I try to keep it on my private property so as to not be part of the problem.


I wouldn't be surprised if much of that .2, besides the occasional irresponsible redneck that doesn't represent the majority, might be non-English speakers. I say this based on the following experience: I was out at the Wedge a few weeks ago and was surprised by the number of riders that were not speaking English. I would guess a few more than .2% of the riders out there were illegally going off the road through the cedars and spinning donuts in the dirt and sand. (And the place was overrun, there weren't just a few fourwheelers). There were definitely a few machines that were oblivious to the rules. By my observations, the majority of the offending riders probably did not speak English and maybe the others couldn't read or were drunk so maybe none of them were able to read the signs relating to off-road travel. I can't tell you how pleased I was to see the Sherriff on his way down as I was on my way out. It was a beautiful place but the constant buzzing and revving engines that were still loud and clear even after I'd climbed half way down the Little Grand Canyon was so damn annoying. I wouldn't say it ruined my Wilderness experience, because I realize that any place with four wheelers is not a Wilderness experience due to the serious noise pollution. "Shared recreation" is a veilded lie, having any significant number of ATV's in an area will significantly decrease the experience for many others and drive non ATV recreationalists elsewhere. Its simply not that enjoyable to enjoy a beautiful view with engines roaring in your ear and kicking up dust around you.

I hope some of the ATV groups are campaigning bilingually for rider responsibility. I am not racist, I love Mexico and Mexicans and served my mission there. However, anyone who has visited Mexico can confirm that the majority of the population has no sense of environmental responsibility and have destroyed or tainted much of the beauty of the country with litter. It was clear that the ATV's we saw in Monterrey were taking their machines wherever they could and leaving new tracks and litter along the way. I shrugged my shoulders, thats Mexicos problem. Just like using their canyons for trash dumps. Many bring that attitude to the US, and I wouldn't call it wanton, I would call it ignorance or lack of realization that things are different here and likely with education they would be more than happy to comply. Most are really good people. Warning to those of you that are involved in the ATV community: this will only increase as the Mexican population gets more money, more toys, and grows. The abuse that stems from them will fuel SUWA's case. They aren't members of USA ALL and aren't aware that their right to ride is endangered. They won't be educated through the normal channels, and a concerted effort will have to be made to reach out to the latin ATV community, as much of it is insulated from the rest of the ATV community.

If people like me and Stefan and SUWA can light fires under your asses and get you to educate the .2% then I say lets keep it up! If you can get all illegal 4x4 use and abuse to stop before SUWA can get it closed and thereby prevent the damage, then I say that therein lies the victory for you and a victory for everyone. Ideally, there will be a few more spots protected as wilderness from ATV use for the future (not necessarily everything SUWA is asking for but more than we have now), and ATV recreation will realize that they have to be responsible or they'll lose what they have.

I gotta admit that I see more and more waking up to the reality that they can't do whatever the hell they want. That is cool.

[scoutabout]

Statistics are bull. However, 2 four wheelers out of every 1000 is still A LOT, considering the damage 2 4x4's can do over time. Of course its a minority, but that minority is killing the rest of y'alls reputation and creating visible proof against you for your enemies in SUWA and the govt.

Statistics are bull? How many hikers out of 1000 have trampled cryptobiotic crust?

I am a four-wheeler rider who is against USA ALL but also generally despises SUWA. While I realize a large majority of ATVers are cool and and I'm friends with many of them, I've also found more than a few ATV recreationists who fit the stereotype you guys so adamantly try to DENY and they have seriously turned me off of the idea, one that I used to be pretty down with. Now I try to keep it on my private property so as to not be part of the problem.

Why are you against USA-ALL?

I wouldn't be surprised if much of that .2, besides the occasional irresponsible redneck that doesn't represent the majority, might be non-English speakers. I say this based on the following experience: I was out at the Wedge a few weeks ago and was surprised by the number of riders that were not speaking English. I would guess a few more than .2% of the riders out there were illegally going off the road through the cedars and spinning donuts in the dirt and sand. (And the place was overrun, there weren't just a few fourwheelers). There were definitely a few machines that were oblivious to the rules. By my observations, the majority of the offending riders probably did not speak English and maybe the others couldn't read or were drunk so maybe none of them were able to read the signs relating to off-road travel. I can't tell you how pleased I was to see the Sherriff on his way down as I was on my way out. It was a beautiful place but the constant buzzing and revving engines that were still loud and clear even after I'd climbed half way down the Little Grand Canyon was so damn annoying. I wouldn't say it ruined my Wilderness experience, because I realize that any place with four wheelers is not a Wilderness experience due to the serious noise pollution. "Shared recreation" is a veilded lie, having any significant number of ATV's in an area will significantly decrease the experience for many others and drive non ATV recreationalists elsewhere. Its simply not that enjoyable to enjoy a beautiful view with engines roaring in your ear and kicking up dust around you.

I hope some of the ATV groups are campaigning bilingually for rider responsibility. I am not racist, I love Mexico and Mexicans and served my mission there. However, anyone who has visited Mexico can confirm that the majority of the population has no sense of environmental responsibility and have destroyed or tainted much of the beauty of the country with litter. It was clear that the ATV's we saw in Monterrey were taking their machines wherever they could and leaving new tracks and litter along the way. I shrugged my shoulders, thats Mexicos problem. Just like using their canyons for trash dumps. Many bring that attitude to the US, and I wouldn't call it wanton, I would call it ignorance or lack of realization that things are different here and likely with education they would be more than happy to comply. Most are really good people. Warning to those of you that are involved in the ATV community: this will only increase as the Mexican population gets more money, more toys, and grows. The abuse that stems from them will fuel SUWA's case. They aren't members of USA ALL and aren't aware that their right to ride is endangered. They won't be educated through the normal channels, and a concerted effort will have to be made to reach out to the latin ATV community, as much of it is insulated from the rest of the ATV community.

Why is that we should disregard data collected by the BLM, but your single observation should represent all OHV users?

If people like me and Stefan and SUWA can light fires under your asses and get you to educate the .2% then I say lets keep it up! If you can get all illegal 4x4 use and abuse to stop before SUWA can get it closed and thereby prevent the damage, then I say that therein lies the victory for you and a victory for everyone. Ideally, there will be a few more spots protected as wilderness from ATV use for the future (not necessarily everything SUWA is asking for but more than we have now), and ATV recreation will realize that they have to be responsible or they'll lose what they have.

I gotta admit that I see more and more waking up to the reality that they can't do whatever the hell they want. That is cool.

This is something we've been working on long before uutah.com ever went online.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Statistics are bull? How many hikers out of 1000 have trampled cryptobiotic crust?

Certainly there have been many. But it would take 100 hikers hiking for many hours to do the amount of damage in the desert that one off-road machine can do in minutes. I think we can agree on that.

The problem with your statistics claim is that it compares registered OHV's to actual tickets received. That in no way represents the TRUE number of people committing crimes. It only represents that .2 percent of all registered users have been ticketed. But then again, I think we both agree that enforcement of these laws is seriously lacking. That would lead me to believe that there is a much larger percentage of users who are doing harm.

How many people speed in Utah on a given day? How many receive tickets? And how many cars are registered in Utah? If we were to generate a percent from those numbers, it wouldn't represent the reality of how many people speed.

[scoutabout]

Statistics are bull? How many hikers out of 1000 have trampled cryptobiotic crust?

Certainly there have been many. But it would take 100 hikers hiking for many hours to do the amount of damage in the desert that one off-road machine can do in minutes. I think we can agree on that.

The problem with your statistics claim is that it compares registered OHV's to actual tickets received. That in no way represents the TRUE number of people committing crimes. It only represents that .2 percent of all registered users have been ticketed. But then again, I think we both agree that enforcement of these laws is seriously lacking. That would lead me to believe that there is a much larger percentage of users who are doing harm.

How many people speed in Utah on a given day? How many receive tickets? And how many cars are registered in Utah? If we were to generate a percent from those numbers, it wouldn't represent the reality of how many people speed.

All we have to go off of is the statistics. Any other casual observations are wild guesses.

[Sombeech]

ATV riders are dumb, hikers are smart. We all get it.

Let us know when you have any new information to post.

[JP]

Or something not weighted to one side

[rock_ski_cowboy]

How many hikers out of 1000 have trampled cryptobiotic crust?

600 or 700, depending on which 1000 you pick. Hiking is fun!

Why are you against USA-ALL?

Their name says it all. I've read their propaganda. Studied their website and this is what I got: "We represent everyone's right to enjoy the outdoors!" When in reality they are an OHV vehicle lobby group. Why can't they just come out and state the full truth of what they're actually doing: "Opposing new wilderness legislation and closures of areas to OHV's" rather than presenting a half truth to get more people on their side and pretending to benefit everyone when they were set up solely to counter environmental groups for the benefit the off road community. At least SUWA isn't beating arount the bush. They want as much wilderness as they can get, they want to keep OHV's out of as much land as possible, and they don't even pretend to represent "Everyone". Keep in mind that both SUWA and USA-ALL suck in my opinion. Environmentalists and atv riders don't.

Why is that we should disregard data collected by the BLM, but your single observation should represent all OHV users?

Did I say it represented all? Did I say you should disregard the data? I said 2 in 2000 is a lot. I shared an experience becuase real life experiences are useful. Do I think everyone who road off the roads that day got a ticket when the sherriff arrived? Highly doubtful.

This is something we've been working on long before uutah.com ever went online.

Cool, commendable stuff. Send me a link to organizations that promote ATV education, and I'll see if I can't send some money their way. Sorry about my combative tone earlier, I'll try and stay out of your forum. I was just bored on my birthday and thought I'd do some evil pot stirring. I know no one here is a bad OHVer and we're all supposed to be friends. I got no problem with y'all.

[scoutabout]

600 or 700, depending on which 1000 you pick. Hiking is fun!

I agree, hiking is fun!

Their name says it all. I've read their propaganda. Studied their website and this is what I got: "We represent everyone's right to enjoy the outdoors!" When in reality they are an OHV vehicle lobby group. Why can't they just come out and state the full truth of what they're actually doing: "Opposing new wilderness legislation and closures of areas to OHV's" rather than presenting a half truth to get more people on their side and pretending to benefit everyone when they were set up solely to counter environmental groups for the benefit the off road community. At least SUWA isn't beating arount the bush. They want as much wilderness as they can get, they want to keep OHV's out of as much land as possible, and they don't even pretend to represent "Everyone". Keep in mind that both SUWA and USA-ALL suck in my opinion. Environmentalists and atv riders don't.

USA-ALL is just an abbreviation. The name is Utah Shared Access Alliance. I don't see where USA-ALL ever claimed to represent EVERYONE. I've always thought they've been clear to claim that they are primarily focused on motorized recreation. Although, they do represent the interests of mountain bikers, horseback riders and cattlemen.

The old USA-ALL website:

http://www.usaall.org/old/

Unfortunately, the existance of groups like SUWA and others requires the existance of groups like USA-ALL to push back. I wish neither were necessary. I'd like to see more environmental groups work with OHV groups to increase education and awareness.

Cool, commendable stuff. Send me a link to organizations that promote ATV education, and I'll see if I can't send some money their way. Sorry about my combative tone earlier, I'll try and stay out of your forum. I was just bored on my birthday and thought I'd do some evil pot stirring. I know no one here is a bad OHVer and we're all supposed to be friends. I got no problem with y'all.

One of USA-ALL's objectives is supposed to be education, although I admit that their activities in this area have been limited. That is changing however. There is a group called PLEAA that does ATV education courses, but they are way behind on the Internet era. UTMA (www.utma.net) does some education programs also, but again I'd like to see them doing more in that specific area.

[hank moon]

Unfortunately, the existance of groups like SUWA and others requires the existance of groups like USA-ALL to push back. I wish neither were necessary. I'd like to see more environmental groups work with OHV groups to increase education and awareness.

I agree to a point, but it's all unnecessary, just a step away from a better mode of communication than the violent style that presently exists.

Read my comments in this thread:

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7763

The numbers prove that less than 0.2% of OHV users engage in irresponsible recreation behavior.

Help us stamp out the last 0.2% by getting involved and donating to groups like USA-ALL

Hi Scoutabout - thanks for your thoughts. I have not read your comments yet, but soon. I don't believe orgs like USA-ALL or SUWA are what is needed to solve this problem. They only serve to perpetuate an atmosphere of war. What is needed is direct, constructive communication between user groups with the ultimate goal of uniting all conscientious users and marginalizing the madmen.

We all want (more or less) the same thing: to enjoy the beautiful (but fragile) utah wilderness in our own varied ways and to preserve it as much as possible for our own continued enjoyment and that of future generations. I believe this is not possible w/o structured communication and cooperation between the various user groups. The borderline hate speech that comes out of SUWA, USA-ALL, etc. is not productive. I aim to (somehow) find a "third way" out of this us vs. them / me vs. you trap.

That said, I *do* believe SUWA and USA-ALL are well-intentioned orgs but who have simply learned to ignore the truth and importance of the following adage:

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"

More to come...and thanks again.

hank

[UtahFire]

I posted these comments on sltrib.com, and Patty is making a correction to the article. Thought everyone would find this interesting.

I wouldn't hold your breath for any corrections. The Salt Lake Tribune is SUWA's lapdog.

[scoutabout]

Unfortunately, the existance of groups like SUWA and others requires the existance of groups like USA-ALL to push back. I wish neither were necessary. I'd like to see more environmental groups work with OHV groups to increase education and awareness.

I agree to a point, but it's all unnecessary, just a step away from a better mode of communication than the violent style that presently exists.

Read my comments in this thread:

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7763

The numbers prove that less than 0.2% of OHV users engage in irresponsible recreation behavior.

Help us stamp out the last 0.2% by getting involved and donating to groups like USA-ALL

Hi Scoutabout - thanks for your thoughts. I have not read your comments yet, but soon. I don't believe orgs like USA-ALL or SUWA are what is needed to solve this problem. They only serve to perpetuate an atmosphere of war. What is needed is direct, constructive communication between user groups with the ultimate goal of uniting all conscientious users and marginalizing the madmen.

We all want (more or less) the same thing: to enjoy the beautiful (but fragile) utah wilderness in our own varied ways and to preserve it as much as possible for our own continued enjoyment and that of future generations. I believe this is not possible w/o structured communication and cooperation between the various user groups. The borderline hate speech that comes out of SUWA, USA-ALL, etc. is not productive. I aim to (somehow) find a "third way" out of this us vs. them / me vs. you trap.

That said, I *do* believe SUWA and USA-ALL are well-intentioned orgs but who have simply learned to ignore the truth and importance of the following adage:

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"

More to come...and thanks again.

hank

I agree completely regarding the style of comments and rhetoric coming from both groups. While I can't change SUWA, I can say that going forward USA-ALL will not be employing that type of rhetoric. While some of the comments of the former ED and Pres were occassionally funny zingers, the "blame SUWA" and "we want it all" tone isn't helping. Since taking over, I have chosen a different route when commenting on stories for the press. I hope the comments that have appeared thus far have reflected that.

[scoutabout]

I posted these comments on sltrib.com, and Patty is making a correction to the article. Thought everyone would find this interesting.

I wouldn't hold your breath for any corrections. The Salt Lake Tribune is SUWA's lapdog.

I agree that the editorials are COMPLETELY biased against motorized recreation, but my experience with the actual reporters has been fairly good. Ms. Henetz did correct the online version of the story, and even consulted me on some additional analysis of the data. I don't know if it was printed in the paper, but there is a correction note on the website as well for 7/12. Most of the stories are driven by well crafted, well represented, and well supported press releases by the professional firms employed by PEER, SUWA, and their friends. That's why I floated my idea on pooling resources to fund a PR campaign on the USALL list (not affiliated with USA-ALL). However, that idea was met with absolute silence by the leaders of the motorized community. It seems that very few groups will put their money where their mouth is. USA-ALL will, and so will U4WDA. Only two groups I can influence, so I'm starting there.

[UtahFire]

I posted these comments on sltrib.com, and Patty is making a correction to the article. Thought everyone would find this interesting.

I wouldn't hold your breath for any corrections. The Salt Lake Tribune is SUWA's lapdog.