canyon with water?

[rockgremlin]

I have found that putting together a network of knowledgeable and like minded canyoneers is the best way to gather large amounts of good beta quickly. A normal guy working solo might uncover 2 or 3 new canyons in one year if he is extremely lucky. A group of 10 can beta 50 canyons by sharing knowledge and spreading the work load. I learned, modified and adopted this method after talking with a couple of Steve Allen's friends. So it really comes down to what are you looking for.... a fun time unlocking a new route, or assembling a large amount of quality beta in the most efficient manner possible?

Ah yes......inserting one of my favorite lines here: Working smarter, not harder.

[ajroadtrips]

I agree, finding new things is more work, and rewarding in it's own way.

My comments and poking were directed at the fact that by not doing the canyons you are posting on climb-utah.com, the quality is suffering and it's a bit misleading. Sorta like me writing about climbing Everest from other peoples accounts.

Neon is a prime example that I had several people tell me your description was lacking, so I did it to see. Sure enough, the description was pretty weak. Seems you have improved that route description recently..... Hmmm, maybe from other sources available on the internet?

Fine to put things you haven't done, but a very good idea to give a disclaimer, and credit to the source since your name is in the copyright at the bottom of the page.

The old quantity versus quality paradox....

Finding canyons from scratch is a lot of hard (but fun) work. And I have spent my fair share of time in the barrel....

Now I'll let you in on a big secret. I have found that putting together a network of knowledgeable and like minded canyoneers is the best way to gather large amounts of good beta quickly. A normal guy working solo might uncover 2 or 3 new canyons in one year if he is extremely lucky. A group of 10 can beta 50 canyons by sharing knowledge and spreading the work load. I learned, modified and adopted this method after talking with a couple of Steve Allen's friends. So it really comes down to what are you looking for.... a fun time unlocking a new route, or assembling a large amount of quality beta in the most efficient manner possible?

[Iceaxe]

Fine to put things you haven't done, but a very good idea to give a disclaimer, and credit to the source since your name is in the copyright at the bottom of the page.

Climb-Utah is a team effort and has been from its its inception. A team effort was the whole idea behind the Circle of Friends to begin with, which is where it got its name. We are always attempting to improve the quality which is why the route descriptions are ever changing. We believe that Climb-Utah has the best and most accurate beta available. Every route on the website has been done by a trusted member of the team. I personally write all route descriptions which are then reviewed by the entire team and several trusted outsiders. This is done to increase our accuracy to the highest level possible.

But please RC, you already know all of this because at one time we discussed the possibilities of you joining the team..... so what's your problem? Didn't get picked for the team?



If ya don't like the way we do things you are always welcome to take your computer and create your own website..... oh wait.... you already did that.
.

[marc olivares]

i'm curious what you have to gain with your website Ryan?

seems everyone has an ulterior motive, whether it be a primary or secondary motive, there's always something else gained by posting up beta.

with some it's to sell some swag, others to sell some training, still others to sell the beta itself.

since you are doing none of these thing, one can assume you are doing it out of recognition. why would anyone else post up a site, on his own dime, to gain nothing in return. unless it's your noble ego that gets stroked when someone logs into your site.

now i'm not picking fights, or slinging mud, i honestly enjoy your site
i feel there needs to be more like them. but websites and beta hunting costs money and time. none of which you are being compensated for.

so why are you doing it? for the sake of shaking your finger at those who charge for what you offer as free? that seems a little arrogant to me.
so i ask again, what do you have to gain?

[ajroadtrips]

But please RC, you already know all of this because at one time we discussed the possibilities of you joining the team..... so what's your problem? Didn't get picked for the team?



If ya don't like the way we do things you are always welcome to take your computer and create your own website..... oh wait.... you already did that.

I took a good look at the "team" and decided it wasn't headed in the direction I wished to go for a variety of reasons, so I rescinded my interest to pursue a different direction. (Although you still have my basic Three Canyon write-up and several of my pictures on your site, sans credit to me... Hmmmm.... )

I was not a matter of not being picked for "the team", but rather I decided not to pick "the team".... Sorry man, you just didn't make the cut.... Don't call us, we'll call you.

[ajroadtrips]

Good questions Marc.

Cost is not an issue. My hosting costs me a whopping $36 a year. Not going to break the bank. Domain registration is something like $10 on top of that. So, in any given year, I am in it less that $50.

Recognition is not much of a motive either.

I am in the computer industry professionally, so creating the site has taken very little time, and maintenance even less. Using many different tools has made it a breeze.

So why? I want to share some of those amazing places with others. Many of the beta sites I thought had drawbacks, so I started creating one that better fit my needs.

I hope to eventually create an environment where people share and communicate on canyon information. (similar in vision to MountainProject.) Others have tried this, but failed due to either poor web design, or lack of information. I decided to throw my hat in the ring and see what happens. Only time will tell if it proves useful to the community and takes off, or goes by the wayside.

The poking at Shane comes as a result of his claims when he started the Circle of Few (as it was once called) that he "personally did all the routes". The claim was quietly removed, but without disclosure people generally assume the person writing the description did the canyon. Would you buy a guidebook from someone who had not done the routes? Yikes! I'd pass on it personally, unless it was disclosed up front, then I could make an informed decision.

i'm curious what you have to gain with your website Ryan?

seems everyone has an ulterior motive, whether it be a primary or secondary motive, there's always something else gained by posting up beta.

with some it's to sell some swag, others to sell some training, still others to sell the beta itself.

since you are doing none of these thing, one can assume you are doing it out of recognition. why would anyone else post up a site, on his own dime, to gain nothing in return. unless it's your noble ego that gets stroked when someone logs into your site.

now i'm not picking fights, or slinging mud, i honestly enjoy your site
i feel there needs to be more like them. but websites and beta hunting costs money and time. none of which you are being compensated for.

so why are you doing it? for the sake of shaking your finger at those who charge for what you offer as free? that seems a little arrogant to me.
so i ask again, what do you have to gain?

[Iceaxe]

Although you still have my basic Three Canyon write-up and several of my pictures on your site, sans credit to me... Hmmmm....

Not sure where you are looking but second paragraph down notes some of the Three Canyon pics belong to you. We asked for and was granted permission by you to use your pictures. As a normal practice Climb-Utah has never given individual credit unless it was specifically requested.... again, you know all this.

And sorry to burst your bubble, but your route description was not the one used as a base for Three Canyon. But we did use yours (again with permission) to check and review against.

Still curious to know where you are trying to go with this.... when you want to attack someone its best to go after their weakness and not their strong points. Good accurate beta is our strong point. Attacking the quality of beta on Climb-Utah kinda makes you look like an idiot.

Sorry if for some reason you feel as if we left you in the back seat with your dress pulled over your head and no panties on, but we are sure you and outdoorzen will be very happy together and we wish you the best of luck.

[Iceaxe]

I hope to eventually create an environment where people share and communicate on canyon information. (similar in vision to MountainProject.) Others have tried this, but failed due to either poor web design, or lack of information.

Correct me if I

[ajroadtrips]

[quote=Iceaxe]

Correct me if I

[Iceaxe]

BTW, I received a blast from the past via e-mail.

Dang that is old.... The copyright date was added sometime in 1999. The Circle of Few and the road tar background were replaced somewhere around 2000. If you want to look for an older version the orginal website address was http://homestead.com/climbutah

Climb-Utah has been around in some form or other since 1997, at first it was just a pretty pictures site. Than came the addintion of stories. I believe the first actual beta was posted around 1998.

[rockgremlin]

...we left you in the back seat with your dress pulled over your head and no panties on...

Can we get an emoticon for this please?

[montanablur]

Leys get over this piss fight and back to someone in a bikini...