What Happened?

[rockgremlin]

I was posting to that ORV/Escalante thread and all the sudden it said that post doesn't exist anymore.


Was it getting that out of hand? Maybe we can start over with a more civil approach?

[gonzo]

There was a lot of name calling going on the in thread, but no more so than your typical land use thread in Environmental Issues would generate.

I don't know who asked in the original thread (Carpey Biggs?) but I would also like to see the actual plan, or press release, or whatever from the Escalante about opening up more OHV areas.

[rockgremlin]

Sooooooo........is it possible to switch off the emotions when we talk about this kinda stuff, and have an objective discussion....instead of a mudsling?

[CarpeyBiggs]

I won't be able to turn off my emotions so long as people are calling me a "forest fairy."

[hesse15]

no was getting differents point of view and not just one-side
apparently people cannot stand that.

that is why because of people like that a lot of good enviromentalist causes went lost.

I was posting to that ORV/Escalante thread and all the sudden it said that post doesn't exist anymore.


Was it getting that out of hand? Maybe we can start over with a more civil approach?

[rockgremlin]

"Can't we all just get along?"

[hesse15]

so basically the tread was started by stefan, and poor Scott jump in with a strange rant about evil people calling and here are the posts

Sooooooo........is it possible to switch off the emotions when we talk about this kinda stuff, and have an objective discussion....instead of a mudsling?

[hesse15]

this is Stefan original post:

(from Canyons Group)

On Jun 20, 2007, at 11:59 AM, Steven D. Allen wrote:

> Dear fellow canyoneers,
>
> One of our worst nightmares may come to pass, unless we get your
> help! We
> have all hiked in and around the Escalante area of Utah for many
> years.
> It has been a quiet oasis in the midst of an onslaught by Off-road
> vehicles (ORVs) in other favorite areas. Unfortunately, while the town
> has been making money off us backpackers, canyoneers, mountain bikers,
> bird watchers, fishermen, river runners, rock art hunters, and
> horsepackers for years, they now want to change course and make the
> town
> of Escalante into the ORV capitol of Utah.
>
> Their immediate goal is to get a $50,000+- grant from the State of
> Utah
> to turn the downtown park into a formalized ORV staging area. This
> will
> then become the focal point for ORV rallies much like we now see
> with the
> Jeep Jamboree in Moab, with thousands of participants tearing up the
> terrain.
>
> What would it mean to us, the quiet recreationists? We've lost the San
> Rafael Swell, Tenmile Country, much of Lake Country, the Upper
> Paria and
> many other areas to the ORV crowd. The Escalante has truly been the
> last
> bastion of quiet Wilderness in the State. If Escalante does become
> an ORV
> oasis, the peaceful ambience of the area will be gone; ORVs will
> dominate
> the landscape, with their noise, pollution, and of course, their
> endless
> trails and tracks that go absolutely everywhere.
>
> What can you do?
>
> Right now sit down and write a short letter to the contact person
> below.
> In one or two paragraphs tell about your experiences in the
> Escalante as
> a backpacker or canyoneer. Tell Mary Tullius that you do NOT want the
> Esclante area to become just another area trashed and ruined by the
> ORV
> crowd. Tell Mary Tullius that you spend a lot of money while in the
> area
> and that the quiet recreationists will not come back to the area if
> it is
> over-run by ORVs. Tell Mary Tullius that you object to the state
> granting
> the $50,000 to the town of Escalante for the ORV staging area.
>
> The letter should be short and concise and to the point. The
> letters need
> to be to Mary Tullius by June 29, so write now. This is very important
> and time is of the essence.
>
> Please write:
> Ms. Mary Tullius - Director
> Utah State Parks and Recreation
> 1594 W. North Temple, Suite 116
> Salt Lake City, Utah 84114-6001
>

[gonzo]

I won't be able to turn off my emotions so long as people are calling me a "forest fairy."

Mountain Maiden.

[Sombeech]

I didn't see the thread, but let me guess who started throwing bombs.

[hesse15]

I didn't see the thread, but let me guess who started throwing bombs.

here is scott patterson comment:Re: [from Canyons Group] Escalante on the brink if Disaster!!


POST DELETED: PLEASE DO NOT REPOST
moderated by stefan

[rockgremlin]

OK, I think if people want to post their side of the story, that's great, but I don't think they need to be derided for it (ie, name-calling -- using words like "poor" or "evil")

It would also be handy if someone would post the original proposal.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Here is the best I can find:

Editorial from SLTrib: http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_6124009

Article from SLTrib: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_6111930

Travel Brochure calling Garfield county the "OHV Headquarters" : http://www.utah-trails.com/937322_Tr...chure12.05.pdf

Now, let's all be civil, shall we?

[hesse15]

ok rock , i can remove "poor" but unlikely i cannot get back the post of scott calling atv people and people in uutah evil!!!

by the way i do not like preaching enviromentalism from somebody that drill dinosaur national park!!!

and that want to use violence to prove his idea ["kick butt"]

OK, I think if people want to post their side of the story, that's great, but I don't think they need to be derided for it (ie, name-calling -- using words like "poor" or "evil")

It would also be handy if someone would post the original proposal.

[Scott P]

by the way i do not like preaching enviromentalism from somebody that drill dinosaur national park!!!

Hesse, what are you talking about?

[rockgremlin]

by the way i do not like preaching enviromentalism from somebody that drill dinosaur national park!!!

Hesse, what are you talking about?

Ya, seriously. Scott is a civil engineer (I think), not an oil driller...

[hesse15]

by the way i do not like preaching enviromentalism from somebody that drill dinosaur national park!!!

Hesse, what are you talking about?

sorry my bad , i was thinking you were involved with that stuff.
but if you are not sorry about my comment , my apologies
still try to shut down business that feed family is not a very nice thing
and kick somebody also is not a nice thing to do scott

[stefan]

and that want to use violence to prove his idea ["kick butt"]

i don't mean to be rude, but perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions about the literal vs. idiomatic meaning of his statement.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Ok, there was clearly some emotionally-loaded responses earlier. No sense pointing the fingers at each with the he-said she-said nonsense or calling each other hypocrites. That is exactly why the first post was removed. The original post is now gone, but I'd still be interested to hear what both sides of the argument have to say, so let's try and be a little more civil.

As far as I can tell, the Garfield Trails Committee is simply petitioning for some state money ($43,500) to build a staging area for OHVs. Now it seems to me this will be a convenience for the OHV users, but won't necessarily stimulate more OHV use or abuse. They aren't talking about tearing up new trail, I assume. Will it really dramatically change the current situation down there?

[jumar]

Scott Said:

POST DELETED: PLEASE DON'T REPOST!!moderated by stefan

Was this why the thread was deleted? Because Scott warned Stefan about posting such things to uutah?

What makes your viewpoint the right one, and why would those that support OHV proposals automatically evil and foolish? I haven't decided on a stance on this issue yet, but it concerns me that you'd want to sneak it by without allowing people (even evil ohv people) an opportunity to see the facts and voice their opinion. Why are you trying to not allow people with opposing viewpoints to voice their opinion? Oh that's right, you don't think there is any other valid opinion.

Scott said:

POST DELETED: PLEASE DON'T REPOST!!moderated by stefan