11 Year Old Boy Killed by Bear

[asdf]

No, but this area is not far from my home and I frequent it very often with my kids in tow. Its a very popular area that sees thousands of people every weekend and the rangers (in my experience) are more then happy to boot you out of a campsite or write you a ticket for any reason they seem fit. I do agree with most everyone when they say that the government was not responsible for the bear attack.

When I consider what a high traffic area this is, the previous nights attack, the DWR and FS determining the bear was at high risk to humans, searching for the bear then calling of the search for the night with plans to resume in the morning, and failing to warn campers I see them is liable. Add in the fact that DWR blamed the FS and the FS blamed DWR for not issuing warnings, people lost their jobs, and that their are now bear warning sign ALL OVER AF canyon these days it makes me feel that they know they screwed up and are trying to make up for it.

I dont think that the canyon should of been shut down for camping but I do think one of the rangers who was out roaming the canyon looking for speeders and unregistered ATVs of the manning one of the two toll booths should of explained the situation.

More than a few of you have made some comparisons so let me add one more to help describe my point of view.

During then night a flash flood washes out a road on a blind corner. The next day the DOT looks at the road and determines its a major hazard and should be repaired but it will need to wait until morning. Rather then put up orange barrels or a warning to unsuspecting motorists they just take the chance that no one will drive down the road and fall into the pit on the blind corner. Late that night someone does drive down the road and plummets in the ravine.

In this scenario would you blame the DOT or should the motorist accept this as risk of driving public roads?

I have camped in bear country before and know the risks involved. If there was an attack in the area when I was camping I would like to know. Thats all.. just that little tidbit of info.

[ghawk]

Somebody brought this up at lunch today and compared the bear killing in the park to a malfunctioning car in an amusement park... wow. If people expect to be babied- go to the amusement park. It's a very sad thing that happened, but this is not the appropriate response. Better education and preparedness is the answer and then understand that this is nature, it is wild, there is always an uncontrollable and wild aspect to it, and that is part of what makes it an adventure. Rangers can help but there will always be the unpredictable.

[JP]

Rangers can help but there will always be the unpredictable.

And as Sonya mentioned earlier, lawsuits like these can lead to that "can of worms".

[asdf]

If people expect to be babied- go to the amusement park. It's a very sad thing that happened, but this is not the appropriate response. Better education and preparedness is the answer and then understand that this is nature, it is wild, there is always an uncontrollable and wild aspect to it, and that is part of what makes it an adventure.

Babied? really? A simple verbal warning from a ranger when you pay you fee as you enter the canyon is considered is being babied? I don't think anyone has asked that a Ranger wipes your ass for you. Currently they have Bear warnings posted on the sides of the tool boths and ever man made structure in the canyon to the point where its actually ridiculous.
As I mentioned a few pages back in this thread on a trip to Glacier a camp ground was closed to recent bear activity. Did I fell babied? No. Did I have the option to camp near by? yes. Was it nice t know that there was an aggressive bear in the area? absolutely. Was no trip ruined? not at all.

[ghawk]

Babied? really? A simple verbal warning from a ranger when you pay you fee as you enter the canyon is considered is being babied? I don't think anyone has asked that a Ranger wipes your ass for you. Currently they have Bear warnings posted on the sides of the tool boths and ever man made structure in the canyon to the point where its actually ridiculous.
As I mentioned a few pages back in this thread on a trip to Glacier a camp ground was closed to recent bear activity. Did I fell babied? No. Did I have the option to camp near by? yes. Was it nice t know that there was an aggressive bear in the area? absolutely. Was no trip ruined? not at all.

Please read the whole quote. I was referring to the idea that someone expressed at lunch that the bear attack was the same as a car malfunctioning at an amusement park. It should not be treated as the same thing. It is not a controlled environment in the natural world. The attitude among people that the park should just take care of everything like it is expected at an amusement park is what bothered me in the discussion at lunch. I'm not opposed to rangers giving warnings and I'm glad they do. But i do not think that suing is an appropriate response when unexpected things happen. Sorry if I did not word that clearly but i meant that I didn't want to be babied like people expect to be in amusement parks. Warnings are good and appropriate and should be made if possible.

[asdf]

Please read the whole quote. I was referring to the idea that someone expressed at lunch that the bear attack was the same as a car malfunctioning at an amusement park. It should not be treated as the same thing. It is not a controlled environment in the natural world. The attitude among people that the park should just take care of everything like it is expected at an amusement park is what bothered me in the discussion at lunch. I'm not opposed to rangers giving warnings and I'm glad they do. But i do not think that suing is an appropriate response when unexpected things happen. Sorry if I did not word that clearly but i meant that I didn't want to be babied like people expect to be in amusement parks. Warnings are good and appropriate and should be made if possible.

I misunderstood, my bad.

[BruteForce]

As much as I am really sorry for the family (and I genuinely am), I'm proactively planning on suing the BLM on Saturday. I'm certain I'll see and encounter dangerous snakes, but since I wasn't warned and told the EXACT location of these snakes, I'll now have legal grounds to sue.

There was no signage, nobody approached me to tell me there were snakes in the area and when I stop and see and/or get bitten by the snake, I'll have legal precedent on my side. There were insects and lizards in the area, so I was 10% at fault for encouraging the snake.

How was I to know that there were wild (and dangerous) creatures in the mountains and desert?

[asdf]

How was I to know that there were wild (and dangerous) creatures in the mountains and desert?

[jman]

More than a few of you have made some comparisons so let me add one more to help describe my point of view.

During then night a flash flood washes out a road on a blind corner. The next day the DOT looks at the road and determines its a major hazard and should be repaired but it will need to wait until morning. Rather then put up orange barrels or a warning to unsuspecting motorists they just take the chance that no one will drive down the road and fall into the pit on the blind corner. Late that night someone does drive down the road and plummets in the ravine.

In this scenario would you blame the DOT or should the motorist accept this as risk of driving public roads?

I have camped in bear country before and know the risks involved. If there was an attack in the area when I was camping I would like to know. Thats all.. just that little tidbit of info.

That's strange....
Reading the comments in the SL Tribune, I came across a guy named Puscifer who pretty much said the same thing you did. I wonder where you guys stole this analogy from?

To quote:

It's springtime and rivers flood and bridges get washed out. A motorist arrives and finds a bridge washed out. He informs the police and they send an officer to check it out. The officer confirms the bridge is out and moves on. He does nothing. Now you come along and drive into the river and your son dies. Who is at fault, you or the police? Based on your way of thinking YOU would be to blame, for everyone is aware of springtime flooding and the dangers of bridges being washed out. DUH!

Then I love the followup replies to the above:

Actually I don't mind the analogy (since that post was directed at me). If a bridge is out and I don't notice it and accidentally drive off of it, then I wasn't paying close enough attention--simple as that. It doesn't mean I'm going to run out and sue the pants off of whomever possibly had knowledge the bridge was gone. Accidents happen all the time that are no one's fault.

But your point is valid, nonetheless--there were plenty of things that the family could have done to avoid the tragedy and they simply didn't, warning or not.

and

At any one time during any part of the year 24 hours a day, there are thousands of bears wandering Utah. How many washed out bridges are there? Incredibly poor analogy Puscifer. DUH!!!

haha...

[jman]

Should the FS or Wilderness Areas be required to post signs every 1/4 mile of every square mile in the US, saying that there are wild animals and you need to be prepared?
Would you like to be reminded that on the Bonneville Shoreline trail, that rattlesnakes are in the area every 100feet so you don't forget?
Should there be signs every 10feet in the outdoors saying that there are mosquitoes in the air.
Should there be fences surround every square inch of rivers, streams, brooks, ponds, lakes, and landscaping water features that there is water beyond the sign, and if you proceed through it, that you might drown?
Should there be a sign every 50 feet on the I-15 that you might die if you get distracted while driving?
Should there be a sign on every bathtub that says if you enter/exit wrong or too fast, that you might slip and maim yourself?
Would you like to sign a disclosure at every meal at any restaurant, saying that if you eat/drink of this food/beverage, that you might choke and die?

Please...where's the line?

[BruteForce]

..just playing devil's advocate. I sincerely hope I never put my family in that type of situation where they are helpless to a bear or F'd up human!

Hell, I went turkey hunting last month with my youngest and still carried a .45 in my waistband in case other hunters determined we were in " their hunting area", or that a pissed-off Elk (that we could see very clearly while entering the brush) decided we were in their hiding spot.

[ghawk]

I misunderstood, my bad.

no worries. I didn't word it as well as i thought i had

[ratagonia]

..just playing devil's advocate. I sincerely hope I never put my family in that type of situation where they are helpless to a bear or F'd up human!

Hell, I went turkey hunting last month with my youngest and still carried a .45 in my waistband in case other hunters determined we were in " their hunting area", or that a pissed-off Elk (that we could see very clearly while entering the brush) decided we were in their hiding spot.

Uh (playing devil's advocate) - there was a pissed off Elk where you entered the bush WITH YOUR KID, and you would have blown him away if he had charged you? Sounds like another case of bad judgment, and the Elk gets to pay the price (assuming you hit the mark)? Sounds similar to hiding candy bars in your kids sleeping bag...

OK, that was over the top, but... you make it sound like you took a substantial risk there.

Tom

[asdf]

Should the FS or Wilderness Areas be required to post signs every 1/4 mile of every square mile in the US, saying that there are wild animals and you need to be prepared?
Would you like to be reminded that on the Bonneville Shoreline trail, that rattlesnakes are in the area every 100feet so you don't forget?
Should there be signs every 10feet in the outdoors saying that there are mosquitoes in the air.
Should there be fences surround every square inch of rivers, streams, brooks, ponds, lakes, and landscaping water features that there is water beyond the sign, and if you proceed through it, that you might drown?
Should there be a sign every 50 feet on the I-15 that you might die if you get distracted while driving?
Should there be a sign on every bathtub that says if you enter/exit wrong or too fast, that you might slip and maim yourself?
Would you like to sign a disclosure at every meal at any restaurant, saying that if you eat/drink of this food/beverage, that you might choke and die?

Please...where's the line?

Jman, I think you missed the entire story in fact most of you missed it.


No I dont.
But if there was a mtn lion attack or bear attack THE DAY BEFORE ON THE SAME STRETCH OF TRAIL and the FS and DWR were still activily looking for the animal... then I would say yes to a single sign.
Do you speak with a ranger at a toll both before you get the shoreline trail? You sure as hell do when you drive up AF Canyon, in fact the ranger residence is just down the road from where this attack occurred.

You guys keep making comparisons to this sad situation and faile to include the majors factors that are the base elements of this lawsuit.... are you even reading the story?


If their was NO BEAR attack, in the SAME SPOT, and they had NOT POSTPONED the search until morning then no, the FS/DWR would not of been liable.
Im not sure I can make it any more clear then that.

[BruteForce]

If their was NO BEAR attack, in the SAME SPOT, and they had NOT POSTPONED the search until morning then no, the FS/DWR would not of been liable.
Im not sure I can make it any more clear then that.

I read that part and agree, but the family takes more than 10% responsibility.

[BruteForce]

but... you make it sound like you took a substantial risk there.

Tom

No, that wasn't my point at all. My point was that I knew the risk, took precautions and we came out unscathed. I find it interesting how many folks go out into the wild completely unprepared or come with a total lack of knowledge regarding the environment and wildlife.

[mattandersao]

I read that part and agree, but the family takes more than 10% responsibility.

How much should the family have been responsible for?

[JP]

How was I to know that there were wild (and dangerous) creatures in the mountains and desert?

Don't be challenging the status quo

That's the precedent that has just been set.

[ratagonia]

How much should the family have been responsible for?

Maybe its just me, but I would say the family is 100% responsible.

That a bear was sighted in the area and "attacked" some guy's pillow is really beside the point. Camping in AF Canyon, there is ALWAYS the possibility of a bear showing up and looking for a tasty snack.

Sorry dude. Wanna be safe? Don't be born.

Tom

[jman]

Maybe its just me, but I would say the family is 100% responsible.

Tom

I agree.

The FS isn't our babysitters. It's wild land. What's not to get besides that?

Btw Summit, I can see what you are trying to say, but you are missing my point.