Moab, Colorado River, Bounty and Arches

[rockgremlin]

Hell, the first time you and Shane took me out, you made me spend like $200 bucks....plus the jerky/Gatorade expenses!

[stefan]

We've guided Dragonfly since '98 and Tierdrop since '00. No incidents and the National Park Service has always been satisfied with our stewardship. Now, free internet beta for these two canyons is barely a month old, yet we've already seen Tierdrop Canyon's anchors get trashed (see attached photos). At least one group has pulled their ropes directly around all our rappel anchors and created major grooves and burns. Grooving the rock below the anchor is an eyesore at worse, but grooving and burning the anchor itself is a very real safety hazard for those of us who are in there day after day. Six years of guiding with over a thousand clients and no damage; now this after one month... Sigh.

i remember ryan was greatly concerned about this with the publishing of pandora's box. such is the effect of bringing canyons into the mainstream! it would seem quite useful and important (but not ensuring) for guide authors to stress specific locations prone to anchor/rope groove abuses and to educate their following with solutions (perhaps in a blatant/overstated manner) ... needless to say, this won't ensure all will follow.

[nosivad_bor]

Ya My harness is kinna pink. But it is still in excellent condition and not that old.

Seriously? I think the shelf life of a harness is like 10 years max, even if never used.

Now if you have a source for retro harnesses fess up - I'd love to sport the old school look :D

[hesse15]

hi scoutmaster,
sorry if i jump on your case , but this is a sport as we noted also recently , that does not give much room to mistakes, i think is still highr than climbing , but less than mountaneering.
so stated that is always better to go super safe.

buying a guidebook cost 19$
buying the circle of friends beta 25$

but is not only about get to a place that look nice in pictures.

some of slot canyons can provide high difficulties, and sometime is not just "rappelling"
a lot of place they do not have anchors, and you need to be proficient in create one that is safe enough to rappel down alive and second to do not leave a permanent scar in the rock when you pull your rope.

a lot of canyons are also far away of well traveled road and very difficult to perform rescues.
will be better if you read bunch of the accidents reports over the years.

beside is nice to get friends in cute new places, safety need to be always in mind.

for helmet also just a bike helmet will be better than nothing.
harness iss important to be up to date, you rely not only your life but also to everybody you borrow it

locking biner are around 10$ you can find them slightly cheaper on internet, but again is your life

shoes ,clothes,that are irrilevant, i got mine at DI and they are super.

but all the gear to wich my life depend , i spend $$$, my life is more important, i will save on other things .

so be safe and have fun

I fully planned to get lots of "advice" after this experience or or I would not have posted this report. So bring it on.

Ya thats me in the picture

Helmets, I agree. we should have had them. I plan to get some.

Cheep beaners. I agree, they were just for extra protection while I hooked every one up my feet never left the ground with them. I will get rid of them.

The pack is my Camel back. I was hooked there for 2.5 hours It was nice to have some water. It was not in the way

Never at any time was any person at any additional risk than any other canyoneer passing through this canyon. I was there to be sure everyone was safe.

There are two separate sets of anchors in the wall. The two I was hooked to and two more for the rappelling rope

Ya My harness is kinna pink. But it is still in excellent condition and not that old.

[Scout Master]

Seriously? I think the shelf life of a harness is like 10 years max, even if never used.

Can anyone substantiate this with any real proof or is this a myth created to sell new harnesses?

[Alex]

It's actually a fact that ended in death. I don't remember the famous climbers name, the one who climbed everything without a rope and was one of the fastest ascenders. His videos were very popular on Youtube. Anyways, he fell about 9 years ago and one of the potential reasons behind his fall was due to an old harness that he so loved and adore.

ScoutMaster, don't take our nagging personally. All the brought up advice was for your own safety and the safety of the sport. No reason to have the routes closed and the sport getting a bad name due to someone not wanting to dish out 25 bucks on beta or too cheap to buy some basic gear (which in reality is less than $50).

Remember we all share this sport and the canyons we all go into, are very limited. One human caused mistake will cost us a lot of routes. That is the reason we nagged you. We are all selfish and want those routes to be open for our kids enjoyment

[mrbrejcha]

Seriously? I think the shelf life of a harness is like 10 years max, even if never used.

Can anyone substantiate this with any real proof or is this a myth created to sell new harnesses?

I trust my harnesses and ropes, I know they're good, I've been using them for years and years!

I'm sure it's BS but most gear manufaturers reccomend retiring soft goods after 5 years. Does the harness spontaniously combust after that? It may lose some strength, but not enough to matter unless you're taking massive whippers or something, but for body weight, it shouldn't matter too much. if the webbing feels crunchy, it's lost strength, and obviously check the stitching. You can always get more use out of gear than the maufacturer reccomends, but remmber, f you have second thoughts about the quality of something you are trusting your life to, maybe there is a reason.

[mrbrejcha]

he fell about 9 years ago and one of the potential reasons behind his fall was due to an old harness that he so loved and adore

It may lose some strength, but not enough to matter unless you're taking massive whippers or something

If your talking about Dan Osman, that was about a 1200 foot whipper. That guy new more about rope and harness limitations, fall forces and "climbing" sysytems than anyone, that's why it is scary.

[rockgremlin]

Matt-

I see your point about beta and beta sharing, and I agree with you. However, when we did Tierdrop earlier this year, we noticed rope grooves already in place in the several different locations. Other parties may have added to those, and/or created more, but that's not to say that they were never there prior to March 2007. In fact, there were some very pronounced rope grooves on the third and final rappel -- both on the lip (where most parties descend), and also burned into some large boulders on that same ledge a little farther to the east.

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but probably the only practical solution to this is education, education, education.

Those rope burns in the photos you posted are bush league. I can't understand what those folks were trying to do. The second rappel doesn't even require a sandstone arch -- there's a perfectly good set of solid cams in place under a ledge. And that rope at the 3rd rap?!

[ajroadtrips]

The second rappel doesn't even require a sandstone arch -- there's a perfectly good set of solid cams in place under a ledge. And that rope at the 3rd rap?!

Our experience was that the cams shift after every rappel, and should be checked and/or re-placed. Hesse and I found them badly placed, removed them, cleaned the sand out of them, and re-placed them. This is a good solution for those with climbing experience, but if your not a climber, you likely do not know how to evaluate a cam placement. I also, personally, would not want to take large groups or heavy people off those placements.

Other rocks are available to sling, but due to the angle they were sitting, we didn't feel confident in them. We did not see the arch, so I can't comment on it.

[Scout Master]

ScoutMaster, don't take our nagging personally. All the brought up advice was for your own safety and the safety of the sport. No reason to have the routes closed and the sport getting a bad name

I am definitely not taking any of this personally. I specifically wrote this TR to get "advice" and to help me move ahead in an activity I have really fallen in love with. I am quite aware I am Very old school. I have been teaching rappelling for 20 years now. I have come a long way in that time. I am also acutely aware of the responsibility I have for those who would follow me into a canyon. I made some mistakes but no one's life was ever in danger. I want to move forward with REAL and credible information so No one will ever be in danger.

By the way
As far as I can tell no grooves were made during our trip.

[Iceaxe]

yet we've already seen Tierdrop Canyon's anchors get trashed (see attached photos). At least one group has pulled their ropes directly around all our rappel anchors and created major grooves and burns.

Careful using rope burns as a reasonable argument as to why Teirdrop should remain hidden..... we uncovered the canyon because of the several hundred rope burns your guide service has left.... in fact the rope burns were so obvious and abundant that we used them as a marker in the route description.... Something to the effect of "when you see several hundred rope burns you will know you are in the correct drainage"....

The irony being.... if you had not left hundreds of rope burns we would not have found your route.

[Scout Master]

This Trip and subsequent Report that I did earlier this summer taught me a lot about canyons, safety and equipment. So I am posting a final addendum to this thread just to say thanks for all the good advice given and to say I did take it all very seriously.
Some comment was made about my OLD harness. Though I am not totally convinced time and use has rendered this piece of equipment unsafe. I have decided to move forward and enjoy the security and comfort of a new and more modern Harness.

I wonder if I can get 20 years out of this one?