Via Ferratas

[Scott P]

I don't think there should be many, but one or two in the state of Utah will not have a major impact on wilderness.

One or two is fine by me. I was just refering to the amount in a place like the Dolomites happening here.

Anyway, if anyone wants some exciting modified routes, there are plenty.

A few suggestions are Mee Canyon or Angels Landing.

If they are too tame, I might suggest the Art Murry Cable Bypass Trail in Canyonlands NP. Now that will get anyone's blood flowing even though the cable is there. I will be happy to provide beta.

The innexperienced are such because they haven't done this stuff a lot. How do you expect them to become experienced if you don't let them try?

Yes, and they should try. I am a pretty inexperienced climber too, so don't get the wrong idea. However, inexperienced climbers need to know when to turn back and need to respect the mountain (or canyon). I know in the past, I was a lot less careful than I am now.

No statistics at all.

That "statistic" is in several places, not just there. I've seen it in books, magazines, and many places on the net, including SP, but as you say, they are not always reliable.

And, there's a HUGE difference between Mont Blanc and the massif. The massif, is, well, massive. Ha!

Maybe so, but I was just speculating that the author may have been refering to the massif. The book says simply "Mont Blanc". PS, if you haven't read Wall of Death, it's a facinating read and highly recommended.

Understand folks die on that mountain, but, no where near 100 per year.

How many do die then? If you find the real figure you should post it because I would like to know too.

[Brian in SLC]

One or two is fine by me. I was just refering to the amount in a place like the Dolomites happening here.

Hmmm....

Problem is, folks would want them on the "inaccessable" summits. I can't imagine one on the Grand Teton, for instance.

Slippery slope, to be sure. But, I can't imagine them on public land here.

And the proper equipment for them is kinda spendy, and very specific to that sport.

Funny I say all this, then don't support these guys chopping the bolts on the Cerro Torre, or, removing the ladder on the North Ridge of Everest...

Maybe so, but I was just speculating that the author may have been refering to the massif. The book says simply "Mont Blanc". PS, if you haven't read Wall of Death, it's a facinating read and highly recommended.

Got a number of books on the Eiger, including Roth's. JH the III's tome, The Eiger Obsession is really good too, but, touches on more his relationship with his father and his climbing history, etc. Supposed to compliment the IMAX movie. Just out, and a fine read.

One of the better Eiger books is Eiger: the vertical arena by Anker.

Hard to beat the original Die Wiesse Spinne, though. Amazing read and a forever classic. Harrer's White Spider. If you've ever seen a copy of Um Die Eiger Nordwand its pretty interesting...especially seeing the lads next to Himmler and Hitler...

The Eiger Sanction is super too, and, you get to see Zion(s) in it as well as the Totem Pole. Filmed right on the north face.

I've looked down from the train tunnel...and have though, I want no part of that... A friend just got crunched on it...only 2 hours from the summit...gripping story, can't wait to see the pic's. Yikes yikes.

I'll take Eiger history for a 100, Alex...

Understand folks die on that mountain, but, no where near 100 per year.

How many do die then? If you find the real figure you should post it because I would like to know too.

I don't know. But, I'd imagine the deaths up there get similar press to deaths in the Tetons, Denali, etc. Especially in the local papers. 100 a year seems very high for climbing on Mt Blanc. If I had to guess, I'd maybe guess 10 or less every season. It'd be a low number, especially compared to the number of puke stains leaving the hut up there on the standard route (just follow the vomit and you can't get off route!).

Ahhh, Europe...canyon rendezvous in the Ecrins area next summer (08)...Mont Aiguille! Etc etc (have to re-read Wymper's Scrambles Amongst the Alps too...).

-Brian in SLC

[Scott P]

I did find something directly from Alan Arnette (I assume you know who he is). Certainly he is a reliable source. According to Alan:

http://www.alanarnette.com/alan/montblancfaq.htm

Sadly, over 1,000 people have died climbing Mont Blanc.

That's not the 100 per year often quoted, but is certainly a whole lot.

Same is on Peakware:

http://www.peakware.com/peaks.html?pk=184

I would definately trust Allen though. He definately knows his stuff on mountain stats. At least he would be a reliable source.

[gonzo]

The innexperienced are such because they haven't done this stuff a lot. How do you expect them to become experienced if you don't let them try?

Not to get too far off topic, but this is something that I've always wondered about rock climbing. As a non-climber, reading various forums and going to gyms (The Front, etc) it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs. If you can't climb 5.10a on lead, you might as well go home. Experienced climbers always talk about how great and accepting the community is (unless your name is Tony) but it sure doesn't seem like that from the outside.

When I heard there was a Via Ferratta in Ogden I wanted to check it out. I know it's not "climbing", but it seems considerably more accessible to me (as a non-climber) and would be a decent introduction to actual climbing.

[Brian in SLC]

I did find something directly from Alan Arnette (I assume you know who he is). Certainly he is a reliable source. According to Alan:
http://www.alanarnette.com/alan/montblancfaq.htm
Sadly, over 1,000 people have died climbing Mont Blanc.
That's not the 100 per year often quoted, but is certainly a whole lot.
Same is on Peakware:
http://www.peakware.com/peaks.html?pk=184
I would definately trust Allen though. He definately knows his stuff.

Why trust him? Because he has a website? An American that climbed Mont Blanc once with a guide in '95 is some expert on it? Hardly.

I've never heard of him. Information on his site seems wildly inaccurate, after a quick perusal, or a least misleading.

There is nothing out there on him or by him that would make me suppose he is some kind of reliable source.

Again, maybe on the massif, not on the mountain itself.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott P]

Why trust him? Because he has a website?

I thought you may had known about or heard of him. Writes a lot of mountaineering articles.

Anyway, I know him and have done a few trips with him, but that alone doesn

[jumar]

it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs.

When I started rock climbing about 15 years ago I had a good experience and felt very welcomed. Most of my experiences have been good as I've ventured into different types of climbing as well (alpine, ice, trad etc). I'm not really into the rock climbing culture these days, so maybe things have changed. But it's probably like any of these little sub cultures, where you're going to have some elitist pricks that are very vocal, but when it comes down to it most are pretty good about welcoming new folks. I can guarantee there's some people in this forum that would be happy to take you climbing. You're welcome to come with us when we go. I don't do a whole lot of rock climbing these days, but still do a lot of ice climbing in the winter.

[Scott P]

As a non-climber, reading various forums and going to gyms (The Front, etc) it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs.

Yes sometimes, but don't confuse a wilderness or Leave No Trace (or at least as little as possible) ethic as being against any noob.

Any post I made is not directed towards noobs. Also, no one should get the idea that just because I don't like the idea of Via Ferrata, it is because I am a good rock climber either. I fully admit that I am not a very good rock climber at all.

When I said a lot of deaths are attributed to inexperience on (any popular mountain, not just Blanc) popular and accessible mountains, I didn

[gonzo]

When I say these things, it is not against noobs. I am mostly one too.

That's gotta be the biggest mis-statement of the year. You're probably the biggest non-noob around here. I appreciate all of the advice and information you give here.

I wasn't accusing you (or really anyone on this board) of being anti-noob. It was more a reflection of the time I spent reading giant flame wars over on MountainProject.com last summer. Although, Jinx's recent posting here sure comes close to the vitriol I've seen elsewhere. (Honestly? Threating to cut someone's belay? That's not cool.)

Anyway, enough thread jacking from me.

[jumar]

Honestly? Threating to cut someone's belay? That's not cool

Yeah I totally agree. Invitation stands to come with me climbing. I won't cut your rope

[Scott P]

That's gotta be the biggest mis-statement of the year. You're probably the biggest non-noob around here.

Nah, not really. I was serious. Although some may get the wrong idea, really am mostly a noob when it comes to things technical. I guess I've climbed some fairly hard rock towers, but someone else was always leading. Have done some ice, but not that much. I have climbed glaciated peaks, but nothing harder than AD. I know there are many here (Brian included) that are way more experienced in climbing than I am.

I do consider myself to be an experienced hiker, but not an experienced (technical) climber. I was serious when I am claiming myself to be a noob.

Thanks for the compliment.

I wasn't accusing you (or really anyone on this board) of being anti-noob.

Yeah, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't against noobs in case anyone might mis-understand.

Oh yeah, enough thread jacking from me too. Sorry about that.

[Brian in SLC]

I thought you may had known about or heard of him. Writes a lot of mountaineering articles.

Dude, I spray a bunch on the 'net, and almost none of my stuff is vetted through a publisher! Doesn't mean I'm reliable.

Again, maybe on the massif, not on the mountain itself.

But, what makes you think that? So far you haven't shown anything to the contrary. What is so unbelievable about 1000 people dying on Blanc?

100 folks per day was a bit more unbelievable.

Given that it was ascended in the late 1700s for the first time, and they say in season, between 3 and 400 people per day try it, it certainly gets the traffic.

Interesting site:

http://www.markseaton.com/montblancadvice.pdf

What have you seen to the contrary?

Doesn't seem to jibe with accident rates. Unusually high number.

The guiding services claim that over 20,000 people climb Mont Blanc per year and another 10,000 try to.

Yet success rates are 50% is all?

I can start a Summitpost thread and see if anyone has some real data. Certainly it's available somewhere. Here is the thread, so we can follow along. Let's see if anyone can come up with a real source:
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/vie...=374745#374745
There are many European members so hopefully someone at least knows of something and can post the source.

Good idear! Be interesting to see what bubbles up.

Thanks,

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

The innexperienced are such because they haven't done this stuff a lot. How do you expect them to become experienced if you don't let them try?

Not to get too far off topic, but this is something that I've always wondered about rock climbing. As a non-climber, reading various forums and going to gyms (The Front, etc) it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs. If you can't climb 5.10a on lead, you might as well go home. Experienced climbers always talk about how great and accepting the community is (unless your name is Tony) but it sure doesn't seem like that from the outside.

When I heard there was a Via Ferratta in Ogden I wanted to check it out. I know it's not "climbing", but it seems considerably more accessible to me (as a non-climber) and would be a decent introduction to actual climbing.

That's a pretty interesting viewpoint.

What some folks have a small amount of tolerance (to put it mildly, perhaps) is when someone who isn't experienced sprays advice or information like they are. So, might be more along those lines than a general intolerance of noobs. See rec.climbing and search for "Lord Slime" for instance.

I travel a bunch and get to "see" different climbing communities. SLC is by far one of the friendliest places. On the 'net? Not always. And, some of the vitriol is for fun for some folks, so, you have to sort that out too. But, really, as a beginner or not, this is a very friendly place to climb.

I can't really see the Via Ferrata thing as a gateway to climbing. Folks kinda diss climbing gyms as an intro to outside climbing, but, most hardcorp folk use them for training (a bunch!) and I think they're a great intro, given that some stuff is better learned outside. Via Ferrata is an artificial means to get position and/or ascend a formation (or descend). You really don't pick up the skills or learn the body position or movement beyond grabbing ladder rungs and steel cable. There is no sublety, etc.

Anyhoo, interesting. Climbers are constantly accusing each other of elitism. I've always thought that climbing has more rules than golf!

Pretty funny when you think about it.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott P]

Given that it was ascended in the late 1700s for the first time, and they say in season, between 3 and 400 people per day try it, it certainly gets the traffic.

Another interesting article on how popular it is:

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article1578709.ece

PS, here is yet another calim that there have been 1000 deaths:

http://www.terragalleria.com/mountai...x/mb-easy.html

See last part of "What makes this mountain so special?"

[gonzo]

Honestly? Threating to cut someone's belay? That's not cool

Yeah I totally agree. Invitation stands to come with me climbing. I won't cut your rope

Thanks! My doctor would probably frown on me climbing right now (had my ACL reconstructed two months ago) but I would love to take you up on the offer in the future.

[Scott P]

I did find a few things of interest, but nothing up to date or comprehensive.

http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/...e=02&page=0074

Anyway here are some stats for some of the regions in the Alps as a whole, but nothing Mont Blanc specific. It has stats for Chamonix 1987-1997, but of course Chamonix covers more than Mont Blanc. On the other hand, the Chamonix side only covers the west (French) side of Blanc as the east side is in Italy. It does appear to be well under 100 though, at least for Blanc alone?

Either way, several hundred climbers die in the Alps each year. Scary. Be careful out there.