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Thread: Good Rappelling

  1. #1

    Good Rappelling

    See you on the Trail

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  3. #2

    Re: Good Rappelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Scout Master
    I need a really good place to teach rappelling in the Davis weber county area . Preferably one where we do not need to climb too much first. We are looking for something 80 to 120 feet high
    In the interest of public safety, and, based on your videos from the below thread on "Teaking kids to rappell", I think you shouldn't be teaching rappelling.

    "Lock your knees"? And all that jumping around. No helmits in the second video. And so on.

    Yikes yikes yikes.

    Makes me wonder what qualifications, if any, you have to teach rappelling.

    This isn't the same type of rappelling taught by, or referenced, by any certified climbing guide service or how-to manual I've seen written in the last 20+ years.

    I can't imagine the liability...


    -Brian in SLC

  4. #3
    Any websites you recomend for rapelling basics Brian? I would like to make sure my technique is correct, Im a noob, and I need all the tips I can get.
    Im sure everyone understands constructive criticism but ouch that was harsh.
    The man thong is wrong.

  5. #4
    There are a ton of people who can teach you how to rappel much better than your computer/internet. Just throw out a request. How about me? Sure, what night?
    It's my job to call the BS around here. Get over it.

  6. #5
    See you on the Trail

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Scout Master
    Your Judgmental comments based on a couple of 1 minute videos show you are the one with the problem.
    Ah, man, I didn't get to this thread in time. Can you repost the link to the videos? I'd like to see. (without judging)

  8. #7
    See you on the Trail

  9. #8

  10. #9
    Wow, is all I can say. That got a little heated. I'm not going to comment on the video. It would be nice to know where some rappels are in the davis/weber county area. Anyone answer these yet?

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by codyb25
    Wow, is all I can say. That got a little heated. I'm not going to comment on the video. It would be nice to know where some rappels are in the davis/weber county area. Anyone answer these yet?
    A buddy and I about 15 years ago used to hike just south of the North Ogden Divide. It was about 80'. It was a nice overlook of the canyon road there to the north.

    Sorry, I don't remember many details though. We just found a cliff and went to it.

  12. #11
    I don't know the davis/weber county area very well. If you're down in SL or Utah County I could help more.

    If you don't mind a drive, I always liked Echo Canyon for rappelling.

  13. #12
    Yeah, looks like Scout Master would know where these are up north.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by price1869
    There are a ton of people who can teach you how to rappel much better than your computer/internet. Just throw out a request. How about me? Sure, what night?
    Thanks for the offer. I have been rappelling before and I think I have it down, I just wanted something of a guideline. Like Brian was saying locking knees isn't good. I never lock my knees while rappelling but its good to know this stuff.
    I recently took a class at Hansen Mountaineering that was run by 12 Finger Outdoor Adventure. They did a great job of teaching rappelling. I was thinking that a "hard copy" of some guidelines would be nice though.
    The man thong is wrong.

  15. #14
    See you on the Trail

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Scout Master
    We will be climbing and rappelling on the 9th street rocks in Ogden tomorrow morning if any one wants to come and see how I do it.
    Sounds good, I may just take you up on that (since I'll be headin' to Ogden for the climbing festival thing anyway).

    There's a few routes to climb? I see one 5.6 on mountainproject. Are there other climbing routes?

    Also, if you have copies of any of these, would you mind bringing them along (I think they're all BSA publications)?

    Climb On Safely Training Outline

    Climbing Merit Badge pamphlet

    Climbing and Rappelling National Standards

    "Topping Out: A B.S.A. Climbing/Rappelling Manual"

    Climbing Lesson

    Should be a nice day. Kinda bummed I'm going to be inside for the afternoon and evening, but, the festival should be fun.

    Anyone going to the ClimbFest??


    -Brian in SLC

  17. #16
    A climbing partner of mine pointed me to this thread, since I am a BSA Climbing Director and Council Climbing Director. I will have to say, after reading through this and the thread on teaching kids to rappel that what you appear to be doing, based on your comments and the video links you give, you are far from following the BSA guidelines for climbing and rappelling. Brian in SLC asks about some of the BSA publications (there are a couple of others, Brian, that you may want to see as well). Climb On Safely is the procedures and protocols that are to be followed in BSA climbing and rappelling. Two of the guidelines you do not appear to be following are the Supervision and Qualified Instructor ones. Qualified instructors do include certified guides, as well as BSA-trained Climbing Instructors and BSA-trained Lead Climbing Instructors (but not COPE instructors or directors except on artificial climbing structures). The National Guidelines specify equipment standards (including that helmets are to be used in BSA climbing and rappelling activities), as well as the qualifications for Climbing Directors, Lead Climbing Instructors, Climbing Instructors, Instructors in Training, and Bouldering Facilitators.

    Even though you claim that you "have been teaching climbing and rappelling for most of 20 years", what you seem to be doing in the videos and from your comments indicates that there are some basics of teaching youth that you are not practicing. Teaching young people, especially adolescent males, is very different from climbing with your buddies or teaching adults. When BSA was setting up the climbing program a few years ago, they consulted the military, and quickly discovered that the military considers a 5% casualty rate to be acceptable. Clearly this is not acceptable when dealing with someone else's kids. Liability issues are a major driver of the BSA guidelines, hence are far more restrictive than what one might do with adults. You claim that you "have never had so much as a scratch on one of the kids." Hmmmm .... Well, looking at that slip in the video, I would say you were very lucky if your daughter did not get even a scratch, judging by the way she bounced her side and arm off the rock. And if the "no scratches" statement is true, you have been lucky to get away with it for the 20 years. (as an aside, I have been climbing for 50 years and instructing for over 40 years, including the full 8 years the BSA program has been in existence).

    A couple of the responders remarked on the bouncing and the stiff, locked knee approach you teach. If you have been climbing for 20 years and if you went through the BSA Climbing Instructor course, as given in the Climbing Instructor course syllabus in Topping Out, you would know that bouncing on rappel puts extra stress on the anchors (people have died from rappel anchors pulling when bounced on like that), and when the rope goes unpadded over an edge as in your videos, there is extra wear on the rappel line. You appear to be using a dynamic rope for the rappelling, which is ok if on a climb. But if you have been climbing for 20 years, you are aware that the stretching of a dynamic rope allows extra movement over the edge (especially when bouncing), which wears the rope prematurely. That is why BSA prescribes using static ropes for rappel stations.

    You say you are certified by BSA. Take a close look at your Climbing Instructor card (which is good for 2 years before renewal is required in any case). It says that the certificate is "for participation in training for Climbing" on the front and on the back is marked that you are "Authorized to instruct and supervise climbing/rappelling activities." It does NOT say you are *certified to instruct*. The certification is for "participation" in the course, which allows you to be "authorized" to instruct. The legal difference is significant. The wording is somewhat different between Lead Instructor and Instructor.

    I would suggest that you have a talk with the Council professional who is advisor to the climbing program, your Council Climbing Director, and perhaps even with National.

  18. #17
    who is BSA ?

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nosivad_bor
    who is BSA ?
    I think it is the "Boy Scouts of America".

  20. Likes Kudzu liked this post
  21. #19
    It's too bad we can't just say "thanks for the videos, looks like you had fun. Here's a picture of me doing it (displaying helmet on head)".

    I'd hate to see the charitable act of sharing videos turn into a submittal process, making sure all of the boxes are checked.

    Sure, helmets are good. So is obeying the speed limit. I don't sit upright in my chair while I'm at the office, but I know I should.

    Thanks for the videos Scout Master. I'm sure you know the best practices like most of us do, and please continue to submit your pictures and video.

    Your fellow Eagle Scout,

  22. Likes Kudzu liked this post
  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech
    It's too bad we can't just say "thanks for the videos, looks like you had fun. ...
    As long as you are climbing with your buddies or someone you met at the base of the climb, you can do whatever you want. The problem here is that Scout Master is talking about teaching ostensibly under BSA (yes, that's Boy Scouts of America) auspices. When it is under that venue, BSA gets liability, and so they get to set the rules. Same as when you hire a professional guide or guide service, or when you pay to climb in a gym. You are in their territory, so you play by their rules. If Scout Master wants to take his daughters climbing and teach them whatever way he wants, that's his choice and he gets to make the rules. If Sombeech wants to climb with him, the rules are whatever you agree on between you. If you both want to use parachute cord for a belay line or rappel line (people have done this), that's your choice. But if you are taking scouts out as a troop activity, you have to use a CE/UIAA single rope of 10mm or more diameter. BSA has insurance that will cover you if you play by its rules, but you are on your own if you don't. (I use a 9mm single rope for most of my personal climbing these days, but not for Scout climbing). Another thing you can't do in Scout climbing is teach lead climbing - all Scout climbing is top-rope, including rappelling and simulated lead climbing.

    If you do take Scouts out climbing or rappelling and do not intend to follow BSA rules, then you better inform the parents in writing and have them sign a piece of paper that they understand this. If you are lucky and get away with no incidents, fine. But if anything happens, you are SOL as far as BSA is concerned.

    My post was intended to alert people that if you want to teach Scouts climbing and rappelling, you should be aware of the legal ramifications. Yeah, I know, too many lawyers and insurance types in this world. But they get to make the rules, and to them, it is a serious liability issue.

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