Ho-Hum/North Fork of Robber's Roost

[Wasatch]

Is Shane's NF of RR the same as Ho-Hum?

[stefan]

no it's in the fork next door.

shane's map has the point marked at which ho-hum comes in (if you call the entire branch ho-hum).

on tom's map, shane's and kelsey's NF of RR are the same fork

http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/roost/hohum00.jpg

[Wasatch]

Thanks.

[Iceaxe]

on tom's map, shane's and kelsey's NF of RR are the same fork

It's a miracle....

FWIW: Tom, myself and just about everyone else who sprays beta, with the notable exception of Kelsey, try hard to coordinate our names for the same routes.

Many have suggested to Kelsey that including an "Also Known As" line in his text would be very helpful. But I don't think it's doing to happen. He doesn't like our "silly names".

[stefan]

as far as including the silly names ... it may happen. although it would be IDEAL for him to include the names within each route description, he currently has the idea of *possibly* placing a table somewhere (i think in the back) which would give the correspondance. i believe the names should be directly connected to the route description.

[Iceaxe]

I agree... and I have been working on MK. Those of you who have his ear might also take a swing at it if you think it's valuable info to have.

I think one simple sentence "AKA: Mindbender" would be ideal.

One small difference in the way many of us do business is MK lists canyons and most of us list routes (which I consider to be two different things). As canyoneering grows I expect more routes in each canyon similar to Tom's new Maybe Mindbender.

[stefan]

I agree... and I have been working on MK. Those of you who have his ear might also take a swing at it if you think it's valuable info to have.

I think one simple sentence "AKA: Mindbender" would be ideal.

as you say a lot of us are trying. he hears us, but his issue is that he doesn't want to give too much credit to these names (for a plethora of reason). however, the internet is becoming a permantent source of canyoneering beta and its use will only continue to increase ... and naturally these silly names will certainly persist.

amongst the *many* different reasons we all argue with him on to include these names, it seems simple enough to me that folks are going to research beta in multiple places and his book would be an even more valuable and practical resource, if routes can easily be cross-referenced with other sources of beta ... which likely will use these silly names.

but again, he doesn't want to give too much credit to these names or be responsible for their propagation and proliferation.

could be an interesting topic of discussion for some this weekend

[nosivad_bor]

Perhaps uutah members that own these books can put together a cross reference list of our own that can be downloaded and tucked in the back of the MK book?

Just an idea.

Rob

[hesse15]

on tom's map, shane's and kelsey's NF of RR are the same fork

Many have suggested to Kelsey that including an "Also Known As" line in his text would be very helpful. But I don't think it's doing to happen. He doesn't like our "silly names".

i tried to explainhim that telling somebody that you did "the right fork of the north end of the east side of.."
it is not as sexy and appealing like tell 'I did alcatraz'
but i do not think he still get it, or mostly , he does not care.

his point is that for search and rescue and in general if you do not change the name is easier to do locate a place from the name, but sometime become really complicated
i really like Shaggy that put the pages and thedifferent names of the
canyons

but still will be nice to have them in the book togheter and not separate.

[Iceaxe]

it is not as sexy

I'll take a wild guess and say MK doesn't do sexy....

[Scott P]

FWIW: Tom, myself and just about everyone else who sprays beta, with the notable exception of Kelsey, try hard to coordinate our names for the same routes.

Hmmm, aren't the things the "crowd" is doing the same as MK is doing? I see no difference.

Latest Rave's Frosted Flakes Canyon is _________ __________

Latest Rave's Moe Slot is (published) South Fork Choprock

Tom's "Drama Queen" is Hyde Draw.

Shane's "Exit Canyon" has been known as Sneak Canyon for decades.

I don't buy the "we're just naming routes and not canyons" either, because MK can pull the same thing and say he's naming canyons and not routes and thus not changing anything either.

I see no difference between what MK is doing than what Ram, Tom, Shane, SA, etc. have all done. Usually the motivation behind it is to hide the location, but I still fail to see it as any different.

You are all changing names (but you are all nice guys). Personally, I think the earliest known name should be used if at all possible. If you don't know of a name, that's different, but I see it being done intentionally.

I have also tried to talk MK into not changing the names, but please set a good example.

I guess I am guilty of it too, at least once intentionally. I usually refer to SA's "Little Gem" as "Gem" beacause I thought the name little was out of place. OK, so I'm guilty too. At least I used half the existing name.

[Iceaxe]

Shane's "Exit Canyon" has been known as Sneak Canyon for decades.

FWIW: Exit Canyon is NOT a canyon name. It's just a place holder in the route description to note where you exit. If you read my route descriptions you will note that about half of them have an "Exit Canyon". So if you are using these as names their are now probably 200 canyons named Exit Canyon.

The names I use (and most others) are the names most popular within the canyon community. It doesn't mean it was the canyons first name, just the popular name. Personally I try to set a good example by listing all known AKA's in my beta. I don't list "Sneak" because you are the only person I have heard use that name for the exit route in question and I try not to introduce to many new names.

And I've noticed many of the names used in Ram "stories" (and others) are attempts to hide the canyons true location or name and not the name used when discussing actual beta and routes.

YMMV

[Scott P]

Edited...

(Also I

[Iceaxe]

I've named very few canyons or routes. Most names I use are suggested by others or the name used in beta given to me by others.

As for the Chambers name I have no clue.... it wasn't my name and I was not consulted in it's naming. Same with most names.

You are preaching to the wrong guy... I go with the popular name, mostly because it helps those using a search engine find beta, which bottom line is what I do.

[Scott P]

You are preaching to the wrong guy... I go with the popular name, mostly because it helps those using a search engine find beta, which bottom line is what I do.

I don't advocate MK changing the names at all. On the other hand I don't buy the MK is guilty, but everyone else is innocent idea either.

I will try to work on/talk to MK and his changing of the names this weekend. I will ask his to use the previously estabished ones whenever possible.

We're doing Gem, Enigma, and Poncho Wash this weekend. I know he wants to change Gem to "Three Forks Canyon." Not sure what he will want to change Enigma to. "The Canyon South of Poncho East Side of Muddy Creek"?

I'll talk to him, but don't know if it will work. If you have any specific canyon names you want me to bring up to him, let me know. I'm leaving in an hour or two.

[Iceaxe]

I don't think anyone is hanging MK. I believe general opinion is it would be nice/helpful if MK included an AKA when known.

MK has access to all my canyon names so adding an AKA line would be pretty easy. My site also lists most known AKA's so that would cut down on a lot of work on his part. Contrary to what MK let's on I know he follows the canyon names currently being used by the canyon community.

[montanablur]

When I was young and Skiing Bridger Bowl in Montana we would purposely rename routes, chutes, cliffs, etc. The chairs were slow then and wwhen talking with your partner about a max pow strategy for the day it was helpful.


IMO with the internet making information more prevelant and easier to access, the more things are kept secret the better.

[ratagonia]

[quote=Scott Patterson]
True, but the popular name was changed from an existing one (such as Chambers). Personally, I feel that you and others should refer to the canyon as per it

[ratagonia]

[quote=Scott Patterson]

And I've noticed many of the names used in Ram "stories" (and others) are attempts to hide the canyons true location or name and not the name used when discussing actual beta and routes.

True, but what about Tom

[Iceaxe]

True? Uh, how would you know what Ram and my intentions were, unless we told you?

I have no clue about your intentions Tom, but I know Ram's because he told me.

Other then that I pretty much agree that most names come about so folks can communicate easily using the same reference points. I've always maintained the best way to keep a canyon secret is to not give it a name.

But mostly I'm trying to figure out how this thread evolved into anther "secret" debate. I'm not asking for any secrets. I would like to see published canyon beta have an AKA section to make cross referencing easier. Is that to much to ask for?