I need a HUGE favor

[DiscGo]

I am in need of a huge favor, and I understand if none of you are willing to help out with this, but I figured you all would be my best bet.


I am very actively involved with the 16-18 year old Boy Scouts from my local church ward. My scouts were going to go to Camp Williams for their High Adventure this summer but they just found out today that are not able to attend on the dates they needed (July 18th -21st).


My scouts asked me if I knew anyone who could take them Canyoneering in the Subway. I told them I would ask around, but that I wasn't sure. They can all rent their own harnesses, & helmets, (or whatever) but they don't have all the equipment and no how to do a trip like this. They are going to do a scouting activity with the local Sheriff to learn how to repel, but I'm hoping to find them someone who will take them Canyoneering.

I am leaving in 3 weeks for the summer and will not be around. So I realize that makes this an EVEN bigger "favor card" I am trying to play here, but is there any way that any of you (hopefully even a couple of you) might be able to take them Canyoneering down the Subway for a day or two this summer?

These really are some of the greatest guys ever! For a lot of the older boys, this will be the very last trip they ever go on as Boy Scouts, and I would just love it, if their last "high adventure" could be something really exciting like this.

If it is not possible, thanks anyway for even just taking the time to read this message, and/or even contemplating it. I have come to regard a lot of you as friends, but I realize that the "Internet" is different than "Real World", so I really do understand if none of you do it.


I honestly do not know how I would/could ever repay someone for doing this for me, but I really would be indebted to you if you can manage it. Thanks again.

[Cirrus2000]

They are going to do a scouting activity with the local Sheriff to learn how to repel,

That's easy - just avoid the shower for a few days. On the other hand, teenage boys are often repellent just the way they are.

Sorry, smart-ass spelling grouch here. (It's "rappel")



Hope someone's able to help you out, DiscGo. That would be a really memorable trip for the guys. I'll be about 1500 km away, and not technically adept (yet) anyway...

Good Luck!

[DiscGo]

That's easy - just avoid the shower for a few days. On the other hand, teenage boys are often repellent just the way they are.

Seriously if it were repelling women, some of these guys could teach the course.

Hope someone's able to help you out, DiscGo. That would be a really memorable trip for the guys. I'll be about 1500 km away, and not technically adept (yet) anyway...

Thanks anyway Cirrus. I appreciate it.

[Alex]

I'd be willing to help, but not lead, since I am still a canyoneering noob. If you can find a canyoneering pro then I can help organizing the kids and help out with the trip.

[DiscGo]

kazak- You are a stud! I've always liked you! Thanks a lot. I will definitely keep you posted!

[Iceaxe]

Two problems with scouts and the Subway. You need permits and group size is limited to 12 max.

Do you have your permits? What is your group size?

For a scout trip through the Subway I would recommend a ratio of four competent adults to eight scouts.

[price1869]

http://www.climb-utah.com/Zion/subway.htm

There's your guide.

No helmets, no harnesses required. Maybe one hand line for the subway.

Have fun.

[price1869]

For a scout trip through the Subway I would recommend a ratio of four competent adults to eight scouts.

Try to fine adults that are "competent". Otherwise it's just like having 4 more scouts, right Devon? Sometimes it's a lot harder to teach a fat old dad how to not act like an idiot in the outdoors than his son.

Price

[Scout Master]

I am willing to do the Rappelling training. I prefer they come up to Davis County but If you have some really good rocks down there I'll concider it
I have all the equipment except helmets.
PM or e-mail me for Phone numbers

[Iceaxe]

A couple of places I would certainly want to belay the scouts. If they have rappelling experience it is a bonus that I would take advantage of.

[Alex]

If you get Ice and/or Tanya to go, I am definitely in!

[shagster]

I would love to help out, but I am a noob also. I am more than willing to learn everything needed. If you can use me let me know.

[Iceaxe]

If you get Ice and/or Tanya to go, I am definitely in!

Tanya is way to hot to unleash on a group of adolescent scouts.

As for me.... I've already had my turn in the barrel.

[gonzo]

Tanya is way to hot to unleash on a group of adolescent scouts.

From what I've heard too hot to unleash on a group of adults, too.

[rockgremlin]

I heard Ice was too hot to unleash on a group of scouts...

[Alex]

I heard Ice was too hot to unleash on a group of scouts...

Couldn't argue with you there, what's hot is hot!

[Scott Card]

I have taken many groups through the Subway, youth and adults. Ice has pointed out a couple of things that I would strongly advise and that is the 8:4 ratio of kids to adults. Also, there really are places that I would not feel comfortable taking 12-14 year olds without a least a sling around the waist and a belay down the big boulder and the last rap/handline place by the nice pools. Also, Keyhole falls could create a problem to rely on hand strength alone due to the very uneven landing zone. It really could be an ankle breaker. This is a long hike and will be very hot in July. Hydration will be a major issue and the fitness level will also be important particularly when you get to the last slog out. Don't get me wrong, I love the Subway and the right scout group would have a ball in there. Price also gives wise advice. The adults better be able to handle the hike also and be the adults. The hardest part of the hike is the last 1 1/4 mile. I had a couple of out of shape 16-18 year olds one year and the last up hill portion was a killer for them. Literally it was 3 steps and stop. It took forever. Route finding is moderate and it really helps to have someone who has gone before to route find the slick rock and the exit. Remember with groups, you are only as good as the weakest member. I wish I were available but I am not. If you need advice as to where to stay with a group and the whole Subway thing with groups I would be happy to help with info.

[DiscGo]

I actually have 8 17-18 year old scouts who want to participate. I guess I'll try and figure out if they would rather canyoneer or rather do the Subway. Is it a possibility to get two different permits for the same day?


Again, thanks for your guys' help.

[Scott Card]

Yes, you can split the group and get two permits but that doesn't solve the leadership problem. I don't want to scare you off as to the Subway because it is a blast. In fact I would suggest it over technical canyoneering particularly if the canyon is rated a 3 or greater. Just have fit and competent leadership and the Subway is very doable. I am a bit of a paranoid who never wants to make a call to a mother or father about a hurt or killed kid so I tend to over prepare and evaluate every little danger in the canyon. I started preparing my Venture group in October of the year prior to the activity to Zion or wherever we ended up going. I would have at least two knot and harness training sessions. Then we would do a bunch of swimming tests with packs. I would chuck the boys in to the deep end with a full pack and piece of webbing around their waist with a biner and rap device and have them practice water disconnects on an old piece of rope. We did that a couple of times. Then we would go to a local climbing wall and practice raps, friction techniques, and some rescue stuff. Finally when the weather got warm enough we would hit the red cliffs in Spanish Fork Canyon and set up about 4 different raps and have them repeat the raps as many times as possible. We would do that two or three times. We would also do a canyon or two in the Swell or Roost. By the time the big High Adventure activity would arrive, I trusted the boys and they and their parents trusted me because of the training. We always had a blast. I even took the boys through Das Boot to add excitement and length to the Subway. My training is probably overkill but it relieved a lot of worry on my part and the part of the parents.

[DiscGo]

Thanks Scott. I'll try and ask around and see what people think.