Shooting at Trolley Square

[JP]

From the Desnews:

Police received the first 911 call from the mall at 6:44 p.m. Monday. The first officer was on the scene at 6:47 and could hear gunshots coming from inside the mall, Snyder said.

Three minutes....

Three minutes is pretty damn good. How fast does it take to pull a trigger? A lot less than three minutes. How long does it take to get around the mall? A lot more than three minutes.

[stefan]

I think it's pretty obvious that the greater availability of guns equals more criminals with guns. However, outlawing guns will not reduce that availability to zero. Criminals will still have guns no matter what, and since the government cannot protect each individual citizen from those criminals, the least they can do is give people the opportunity to protect themselves. For a completely defenseless individual, I'm sure dialing 911 after they've been shot by a criminal is perfectly acceptable. For me, however, I'd prefer to have a chance to defend myself.

well, it just leads to the natural interpretation that, correct me if i am wrong, you are willing to increase the rate of violence in the interest of protecting yourself.
[quote=jp]I

[JP]

well, it just leads to the natural interpretation that, correct me if i am wrong, you are willing to increase the rate of violence in the interest of protecting yourself.

not this kind of debate!

it's not the laws that i worry about

sure ... but there is a trade off with the increase in violence due to the prevalence of guns in this country ... the double-edged sword

yeah, and everyone knows and abides by the law, riiiight ... again, not what i am worried about!

and to the rest of what you said, yes at the moment it'll be hard to get out of the major gun violence RUT this country is in, but the prevalence of guns in this country is the reason for the prevalence of gun violence. plain and simple.

So where is your evidence of an increase in violence? If you do get it I know where it

[Sombeech]

Watch out for the copycat murders.

I won't be surprised when another mall has a shooting spree within a month.

I'll let you people decide if you want to defend yourselves. I've made my decision.

[shanehadman]

I won't be surprised when another mall has a shooting spree within a month.

I'll let you people decide if you want to defend yourselves. I've made my decision.

I agree.... we need more Concealed Weapon Permits to protect our Malls!!!

[jumar]

I used to joke that no one seems to mind when cops carry guns, so I should just go to police academy so people will be okay with me having a gun. LOL I didn't end up going to police academy, but I've been seeking good training.

If any of you are looking for some good training, I highly recommend Front Sight, outside of Vegas. My wife and I took the 2-day defensive hand gun course. It was awesome!! My wife especially got a lot of benefit from it. She went from being afraid to shoot a handgun, to being quite proficient at shooting, clearing malfunctions, tactical reloads etc in just two days.
It's expensive training ($1k for the 2-day), but you can find certificates on ebay usually for pretty cheap. I paid $60 to take the course. A lot of cops get training here. Very top notch.

[JP]

I've made my decision.

[shlingdawg]

but the prevalence of guns in this country is the reason for the prevalence of gun violence. plain and simple.

Wow, did you come up with this all by yourself?

So - the prevalence of penises in this country is the reason for the prevalence of rape. plain and simple


Casterate the nation - no more rapes!!!!!

Stefen = Caption Obvious

[Sombeech]

Casterate the nation - no more rapes!!!!!

[scoutabout]

i don't think we need a self-determined militia making decisions about when it's appropriate to use a weapon in public.

Part of the CCP training explains in great detail under what circumstances you can or cannot use your weapon (at least in TX, don't know about UT, but I would assume the same). Stop stating your opinion as fact.

there is not a single person on this forum that can make a convincing argument that more guns will not lead to more violence (intentional and unintentional), because it's crap and simply not the truth.

Look at Canada. More guns per capita than almost any country. Far less crime than most. Look at England. Guns were "outlawed" and crime increased.

if you think this is sensational language then i think you might be looking at the world a little too idealistically.

That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while. YOU calling someone else idealistic?

i can look at this situation all i want, it still won't convince me, since i can find plenty other situations where it turned out bad.

Thank goodness we're not counting on you and your ACLU buddies to protect our freedom.

so you believe in the loose interpretation of the 2nd amendment, eh?

I certainly do. As Moe from the Simpson's once said, "Guns are for keepin' the King of England outta your face." Think about that for a minute. Throw away the idea of reducing crime, and look at the larger picture. What government fears an unarmed citizenry?

[Scott Card]

Is it never appropriate to defend yourself or do I have to run away every time? To not defend yourself flies in the face of reason, history, and self-preservation. Absolute ban on guns seems to imply that it is never appropriate to fight or defend oneself or others. I can't accept that. Fight or flight is situational. I would like both options in what ever situation I am in. I am not trigger happy nor do I even have a concealed weapon permit (although this event may have just tipped me over the edge to go get one) It really is a foregone conclusion that criminals will have guns or knives or some weapon to do their destruction. Whether it be a club or a gun, I want the ability to defend myself if need be and the situation is right. I like to think of myself as capable of pulling the trigger if my life or my families life were in jeopardy. I don't need a tank, I don't desire a grenade launcher or heavy military stuff, that is what the military is for. The need is not present here in the US for heavy artillery. Now if I were in Iraq..... Point being, I want the option, as others have stated, to fight or flight. You remove that right, you remove half of the option, unless you are really good with a sling or throwing knife. Wild West?? Naw.. Simple self protection by reasonable and responsible adults against idiots.

[shagster]

I've made my decision.

I couldn't agree more

[moabfool]

Yah, they're trite, but bumper stickers say it best:

9mm is faster than 9-1-1

Gun control is hitting what you aim at

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns

Fear the government that fears your gun

Protected by Smith & Wesson

China has gun control

The west wasn't won with a registered gun

[basilone0331]

Yah, they're trite, but bumper stickers say it best:

9mm is faster than 9-1-1

Gun control is hitting what you aim at

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns

Fear the government that fears your gun

Protected by Smith & Wesson

China has gun control

The west wasn't won with a registered gun

My favorite: When every second counts, the police are only minutes away

[DiscGo]

I really enjoyed scoutabout's post.

I also liked MoabFool's bumper stickers.

[Joe Gardner]

Heather and I were a block away when it all went down. We watched as dozens of police, firetrucks and EMT's streamed into the area around Trolly Square.

My condolences to the friends and family of the dead. I hope the injured make a full recovery.

[Scott P]

Look at Canada. More guns per capita than almost any country. Far less crime than most.

Where is the source that says this? All sources I can find contradict what you state, but I would be interested is seeing your source.

Here are some:

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm

Gun stats:

One of the most common explanations of the higher violent crime rate in the United States are guns. Gun crimes are far more common in the United States. Only one third of Canadian murders involve firearms compared to two thirds in the States. Guns are more likely to be used in robberies in the United States. Overall gun ownership rates are significantly higher in the United States 41% of households vs. 26% in Canada, and even to greater extent, handguns. Most Canadian weapons are rifles or shotguns owned by rural property owners, hunters and target shooters, and are less likely to be used in crimes. More types of weapons are banned or restricted in Canada than the United States. The two biggest provinces, Ontario and Quebec have had a long history of strict gun controls.

In drawing a comparison to the United States in the area of gun restrictions with respect to violent crime, it is important to consider that the strictness of gun controls varies widely across the nation, from Alaska and Vermont with virtually no gun controls at all, to Washington DC[7] and New York City, with among the most severe gun laws in North America. Vermont and Alaska, and other states with similarly few restrictions on the ownership and carry of defensive firearms, routinely post the lowest violent crime numbers in the US[9], significantly lower than Canada as a whole.

Canada has effectively no legal concealed carry of handguns for self-defense, whereas forty five U.S. states have such a provision. Defensive use of firearms is much more common in the United States than in Canada.

Canada has more guns and fewer controls on them than most nations in Western Europe (exceptions being Finland, Norway and Switzerland which have compartively less restrictions) or Japan.

Crime Rate:

Compared to the United States Canada has a lower rate of murder and assault, but a higher rate of rape. The Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 Shows Canada's rate of rape per capita was 0.733089 per 1,000 people compared to the United States 0.301318 per 1,000 people. However the definition of rape differs in the two countries, as Canada's rate includes the broader defined Sexual Assault making an accurate comparison difficult. The United States rate for aggravated assault was double the Canadian rate. The rate for robberies was 65% higher in the US.

Rates of property crime are more comparable with higher rates of motor vehicle and bicycle theft in Canada and similar rates of shoplifting. Canada also has a higher rate of arson. Some of this may be connected to Canadians being more likely to report property crimes to police than Americans. A 1995 survey by the International Crime Victim Survey found the gap between the countries shrank when the population was directly surveyed about their experiences.

The United States has about triple the per capita number of arrests for drug related crimes. Actual rates of drug use are quite similar however, but in the United States far more law enforcement resources are dedicated to the war on drugs and police often lay drug charges in the US for minor cannabis possession whereas Canadian police would not in the same circumstance.

In recent years the gap between in crime rates between the United States and Canada has been narrowing, with the Canadian rates more or less holding steady except for minor annual fluctuations while the US rate has continued to drop for over a decade. The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita, this is down from about 3.5 times as high during the early 1990's. Approximately 70% of the total murders in the US are commited with firearms, which is roughly double the percentage of Canada. The US has more than 5 times the rate of firearm murders than Canada.

Canada's crime rate is close to the averages in Western Europe or Australia but with differences. Property Crime is lower than in some nations (ie. United Kingdom, Sweden), and significantly lower than Australia but higher than in others (ie. Spain, France). The violent crime rate (ie., murder, weapons offences and rape) is higher than most western european nations, in some cases more than double. Canada has several times more violent crime per capita than the safest nations such as Japan, Sweden, Yemen or Switzerland but substainally (many times less) than countires with very high violent crime rates such as Russia, Mexico, Colombia or South Africa.

I'm not taking sides on the gun issue, but I'm wondering what your source is for the following:

Canada has,

1. More guns per capita than almost any country.

2. Far less crime than most.

Where do these two statements/statistics come from?

All sources I can find refute the above.

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Cda-US.htm

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/int...al.html#access

Many more....

I've also tried to find the statements on NRA and other pro-gun sites, without luck.

Can you show us a source backing up your claim on the two points above? I'm not saying there isn't one, I am just interested to see it.

[James_B_Wads2000]

So - the prevalence of penises in this country is the reason for the prevalence of rape. plain and simple


Casterate the nation - no more rapes!!!!!

Ah Shlingdawg, I think we need to sit down and have a little chat. Maybe your daddy missed this when he was teaching you about the birds and the bees. But penises can be used in not-rape situations, this is called

[RugerShooter]

I tuned in just in time to hear Rocky say we need to look into curbing guns.

If more people had guns, the shooter wouldn't have gotten as far.

oh my, don't go there. this statement is so darn problematic. off duty cops are one thing, but the general public? this isn't the wild west

What if someone with a CCP was carrying and could have taken him out after his first shot? 5 lives would have been saved. Think of it that way instead of automatically going for the rootin-tootin-wild-and-shootin stereotype crap.

I heard at work today that the reason there were no CCP carriers with guns in the mall is that they don't allow you to carry a gun on you even if you have your CCP. If this is true and there was a CCP that could have made a clean shot I think that the families of those who passed away should sue the mall for not allowing you to pack heat. Like we all should be able to do if we want.

[DiscGo]

I really do not think the mall should be sued. I don't know what it is about our country that people think that suing is the answer to everything. It seems like if guns were allowed they would be sued for that too (catch 22).

I do think that if you have a concealed weapons permit, you should be able to carrier a weapon. I really appreciate the right to bare arms as stated in the 2nd amendment. I think not allowing felons to have guns is a good start for keeping the guns away from the bad guys, but I wish more could be done. As I stated before the law abiding citizens who would turn in their guns if asked to do so, are not the people we worry about having guns. It is the people who disregard the laws that we are scared of, and I would like to know that there are people with guns to keep them in check.