For all you global warmin' interested folk

[stefan]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

it was a result of the sasqueech almost going extinct ... fortunately one found asylum along the wasatch front ... and has given birth to another
he will repopulate ... and carry us forth to another ice age

[Rev. Coyote]

Rev- I doubt this will surprise you, but I don't really watch south park.

How many people depend on his point of view for the environment? Were you misled by him, believing GW was not important?

Exactly. Everyone really does want to blame President Bush for everything. You seldom hear about how strong the economy has been under President Bush, nor do you hear about how low the unemployment rate has been. All you hear about is the mistakes he makes, and anything else that might be able to be blamed on him.

A president cannot take credit for the economy. Not ever. It was good and strong in many sectors under Clinton, but he'd nothing to do with it.

Plus, right now, I'm not real sure just how one would judge the health of the current economy. It's not too strong in a lot of areas. Of course, I tend to look at my own industry, but it's a big one. Primary and unhealthy.

[Sombeech]

A president cannot take credit for the economy. Not ever. It was good and strong in many sectors under Clinton, but he'd nothing to do with it.

So that's why Left's don't like saying the economy's great?

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

[scoutabout]

A president cannot take credit for the economy. Not ever. It was good and strong in many sectors under Clinton, but he'd nothing to do with it.

So that's why Left's don't like saying the economy's great?

They like saying it was great under Clinton, all thanks to him of course.

I disagree with RC, the President does have major influence over some things that directly affect the economy. Tax proposals, budgets, trade policies, SBA, and much more.

Why is global warming Bush's fault? Clinton was the President when congress rejected Kyoto. He didn't do a damn thing to change fuel standards or reduce emissions.

[Rev. Coyote]

They like saying it was great under Clinton, all thanks to him of course.

I disagree with RC, the President does have major influence over some things that directly affect the economy. Tax proposals, budgets, trade policies, SBA, and much more.

To your first comment, I said precisely the opposite. Read. Comprehend.

To your second comment, yeah, an administration can offer goodies and incentives to provide mild stimulations. But an economy (in this country) runs on its own. Of course partisan hacks want to take credit for a good economy under their people, but it's a false attribution.

You want to talk specifc sectors and programs, fine. But it's foolishness to give credit to any politician for the health of the economy. And when the gummint goes too far into subsidies and bailouts, it's always a mistake.

[Sombeech]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

[Rev. Coyote]

Rev- I doubt this will surprise you, but I don't really watch south park.

Really? Dang. You should give it a shot. The humor is base, but brilliant. EVERONE'S ox gets gored. Everyone.

[Sombeech]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

[Rev. Coyote]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

Through an accumulation of farts.

[stefan]

looks like this thread has a case of ADD

[Sombeech]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

Just waiting for an answer in this thread titled "For all you global warmin' interested folk"

[DiscGo]

Really? Dang. You should give it a shot. The humor is base, but brilliant. EVERONE'S ox gets gored. Everyone.

I saw a part of a couple of different episodes and it was just too offensive. I do like the Mormon clip:




I also saw the whole episode about the Joseph Smith story. Not bad, but honestly I just try and avoid material that I believe is going to offend me (except you Rev.).
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As far as the President not taking credit for the economy: I could not disagree more. Liberals were very upset with President Bush for his huge stimulant packages after 9/11 but it is impossible to say they didn't work. It was just about miraculous how fast our economy bounced back. For future reference you could make an easier argument about the President balancing the budget because that absolutely also falls under the president.

I do not like Clinton, but the budget was balanced under him. The problem with his budgeting I have is this:

1. Clinton cut our military budget in half, while using more of our military stock pile of weapons than Korea, Vietnam, & the gulf war combined. Part of the problem President Bush had in following Clinton, is that the military was cut down so much under Clinton and needed so much under Bush.

2. With the exception of the huge military funding slashing, I feel like a lot of the economic success we had under Clinton was largely due to Newt Gingrich. Newt did a lot of good for which Clinton gets the credit because he didn't stop Newt's efforts and work bipartisan with him.

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As for Global Warming: A lot of intelligent researchers believe that Global Warming does and does not exist. The truth is we just have not been monitoring the world's weather conditions long enough to completely know if the current temperature rise is man made or not.

One thing I do not believe that most people understand is how much worse Chinese companies are on the environment. China does not enforce the same environmental laws we have here in the U.S. Every time you increase environmental laws and prices for companies it just makes it more of an incentive to move to China where the company can pollute all it wants and pay pennies on the dollar for labor.

[stefan]

As for Global Warming: A lot of intelligent researchers believe that Global Warming does and does not exist.

however, in the field of climate science, i.e., the relevant field of analysis and assessment, the number of intelligent researchers who believe that there is an anthopogenic componenent to GW is far more in favor of it than you and others acknowledge, something conservative/rightwing news /opinion has tried to downplay and cast doubt upon ... which i submit, ferverently, is NOT their place.

unfortunately, they've apparently convinced a lot of people.

The truth is we just have not been monitoring the world's weather conditions long enough to completely know if the current temperature rise is man made or not.

even if you DO watch it for a long time, you'll still never completely know, you'll simply feel more confident in the conclusion, as there will be more evidence in support of it.

this kinda reminds me of the argument you and the rev. had about whether the president can affect the economy or not. he believes the effect is small, you believe the effect is large. this is how lay people understand global warming.

[Rev. Coyote]

As far as the President not taking credit for the economy: I could not disagree more. Liberals were very upset with President Bush for his huge stimulant packages after 9/11 but it is impossible to say they didn't work. It was just about miraculous how fast our economy bounced back. For future reference you could make an easier argument about the President balancing the budget because that absolutely also falls under the president.

The stimulus package was a give-away aimed only at certain producers. Add in the Halliburton fiesta (noncompetitive) and you've just got an economic policy based on the Monty Hall model. Don't look at this as a liberal/neocon thing. It is damaging to the overall economy for governments (federal to local) to subsidize chosen businesses. In fact, I really don't see how any self-proclaimed conservative can get behind such activities. In my own industry, I see the ill effects of government subsidy all the time.

And when I was working (years ago) as a general assignment reporter I was shocked at the way some businesses were handed pots of gold by local governments and others were not. Favoritism, nepotism, "cronyism" are all hurtful to the health of the economies. Businesses should all rise and fall on their own merit. While a tax break for one business may look like stimulus, it creates an unfair advantage against the competition (direct and indirect, mind you).

[Sombeech]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

[Rev. Coyote]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

Your persistent nattering led me to some interesting Wiki reading. I'll just paste:

Causes

Scientists have identified two causes of the Little Ice Age from outside the ocean/atmosphere/land systems: decreased solar activity and increased volcanic activity. Research is ongoing on more ambiguous influences such as internal variability of the climate system, and anthropogenic influence (Ruddiman). Ruddiman has speculated that depopulation of Europe during the Black Death, with the resulting decrease in agricultural output and reforestation taking up more carbon from the atmosphere, may have prolonged the Little Ice Age.

One of the difficulties in identifying the causes of the Little Ice Age is the lack of consensus on what constitutes "normal" climate. While some scholars regard the LIA as an unusual period caused by a combination of global and regional changes, other scientists see glaciation as the norm for the Earth and the Medieval Warm Period (as well as the Holocene interglacial period) as the anomalies requiring explanation (Fagan).

Solar activity

Solar activity events recorded in radiocarbon.
During the period 1645

[Sombeech]

How did the small Ice Age of the 13th century come to an end?

Your persistent nattering led me to some interesting Wiki reading. I'll just paste:

Thank you for answering. I was very interested in this question, so I had to ask it 6 times.

My point is, humans had nothing to do with it. The industrial period didn't start until the 17th century, or technically the 18th century. So the climate changed with no human effect at all.

It was due to a number of possible reasons, like your source stated. The earth is an ever changing planet. Sun spots could have even effected it, but it was not humans.

[Rev. Coyote]

[Thank you for answering. I was very interested in this question, so I had to ask it 6 times.

My point is, humans had nothing to do with it. The industrial period didn't start until the 17th century, or technically the 18th century. So the climate changed with no human effect at all.

It was due to a number of possible reasons, like your source stated. The earth is an ever changing planet. Sun spots could have even effected it, but it was not humans.

Wherever you stand on the issue of cause, it is still a good idea to clean up our act as much as possible. Personally, I believe human activity is one cause of global warming among others. Even the chimp admits that.

The most interesting part of the Wiki post is the theory that a lack of human activity may have prolonged the Wee Age of Ice. To wit:

"Ruddiman has speculated that depopulation of Europe during the Black Death, with the resulting decrease in agricultural output and reforestation taking up more carbon from the atmosphere, may have prolonged the Little Ice Age."

It is my belief that most of the human troubles in this world (environmental, political, economic) stem from overpopulation. Plus, it's a quality of life thing. It's the reason I want immigration (illegal or otherwise) controlled -- we've got enough folks here already.

[Sombeech]

The most interesting part of the Wiki post is the theory that a lack of human activity may have prolonged the Wee Age of Ice. To wit:

"Ruddiman has speculated that depopulation of Europe during the Black Death, with the resulting decrease in agricultural output and reforestation taking up more carbon from the atmosphere, may have prolonged the Little Ice Age."

I'll give him credit, it's the best theory yet that I've heard attempting to tie humans to the atmosphere before the industrialization period.

but

Europe was not always that populated either, and before the Plague, before London was a major city, there is not a record of an earlier Ice Age, except for "The" Ice Age.

...but an interesting theory, nonetheless. Thanks.

[Rev. Coyote]

...but an interesting theory, nonetheless. Thanks.

OK, now here's another interesting theory that will make the mind spin a wee bit faster: Global warming causes a quickening of timber rotation. Faster rates have been noted for the boreal forests of Canada, so we can surmise that timber rotation is faster everywhere, meaning greater production of biomass and a larger gloabal carbon sink. SO, is it possible that the effects of global warming could actually be negated through the accelerated growth of forests?

I'll just throw that one out there.