Customers vs Business -- The rant of the week

[Sombeech]

[my rant]

I continually hear that people need to STOP SHOPPING AT WALMART. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the responsibility lie with the business? Why should the CUSTOMER hold any responsibility about how successful a business is?

To blame a customer where they shop, is like blaming a river for flowing through the lowest part of the valley.

If you want to change the flow of the river, YOU have the job of creating an easier path. And thus, we see angry business owners BLAMING lost customers because they shop elsewhere, shaking their angry fists at the sky.

Here's the answer. Make your business the preferred place to shop. Customers will then "flow" to you. If you complain that WalMart buys and sells for so much less than you can, then form a purchasing group! There are more competitors of WalMart than there are WalMart stores.

And then, when you beat WalMart, you get more business, and the customer continues to win. We, as the customer, will always choose where to go. It's YOUR PROBLEM to become the premium choice, not ours. Somebody please, please, please tell me what I am missing!

[/my rant]

[stefan]

Well, there are lots of reasons NOT to shop at walmart.

there have been plenty of discussions/argument about this. You're just focusing on the gravitation of customers to walmart and away from other stores. while many view this as a problem, it's not necessarily the root of the problem with walmart. this is the problem with chain stores in general. and there are pluses and minuses with large corporate chain stores.

but walmart does take things to a much higher level, and yes it is all based on competition for customers and outselling competitors.

the root of the problems with walmart typically lie in HOW they are able to be so competitive ... that is, HOW they are able to sell at such low prices. there are many aspects to this which are horrendously questionable [not getting into it]. this is where the customer IS partially responsible, as they are choosing to support such business choices, while seeking lower prices.

while i would like to believe that customers and a river are very different, in that water doesn't have a brain and people do, i think, in general, you are more right on with your analogy, as many people would rather not think about where their consumer products come from, but simply about who has the best supply and/or lower costs.

there are reasons prices at walmart are so much lower than elsewhere, and many reasonable people might not agree with HOW they are able to maintain such low prices.

again, not getting into the details of HOW, just pointing out that this is a large fraction of the anti-walmart perspective.

[Iceaxe]

I don't shop at Walmart and will not...... if you don't understand why you have not been doing your homework.

To begin you might look into 10 y/o kids working 12 hour days 7 days a week, 365 days a year. If you think that type of business practice is worth saving a few pennies then shop Walmart, and remember it could be your kid.

[Sombeech]

To begin you might look into 10 y/o kids working 12 hour days 7 days a week, 365 days a year. If you think that type of business practice is worth saving a few pennies then shop Walmart, and remember it could be your kid.

But why would this be WM's fault? The vendor comes to WalMart and says "I'll sell you these shirts for $2 a piece." WM says OK. Should WM say "No way, we want to pay you $3 per shirt, or we won't buy from you"? Target does the same damned thing, but since everybody who hates WM shops at Target, they don't get blamed for anything.

The concept of blaming WM on their methods is obviously not working. It never will. Everybody's heard all of the same stories for years, and yet WM is still successful. The competition's tactics need to focus on Customer Service.

I graduated in Sales, and the biggest thing I learned is you can't fail when Customer Service is your focus. These other businesses CONTINUE to lose business, even with the scary stories they tell about WM. This does not serve the customer in their favor, so they continue on their way.

I say, lose the tales of horror, and focus on Customer Service. Begin a Purchasing Group to be more competitive.

[Iceaxe]

But why would this be WM's fault? The vendor comes to WalMart and says "I'll sell you these shirts for $2 a piece."

Well actually it's not really like that..... Walmart goes to the vendor and says.... you sell this shirt for $2 a piece or you can forget about doing business with Walmart..... The vendor often has no choice but to agree.

Look, you really need to do your homework on this. The way Walmart does business could fill several books of which a couple dozen have already been published.

I don't agree with the way Walmart does business so I don't shop there, many others feel the same way. If enough people feel this way Walmart will be forced to change their methods, yes it will raise the cost of some items a few cents, but the return to the community will be paid back 10 times. This is a big picture deal, not just who has the cheapest shirt today. Nobody said Walmart was not successful..... it's the collateral damage they inflict on communities all over the world that is the problem.

This is really a pay now or pay later deal..... you shop at Walmart and you are really writing checks your children will one day be forced to cover.

[Sombeech]

Walmart goes to the vendor and says.... you sell this shirt for $2 a piece or you can forget about doing business with Walmart..... The vendor often has no choice but to agree.

But why is there no choice? First of all, it's the greed of the vendor that makes them start selling to WM in the first place. The image of "WalMart Slavery" is painted way too often. Vendors CAN stop selling whenever they want. They just go back to Target if they're desperate enough for another worldwide customer.

Look, you really need to do your homework on this. The way Walmart does business could fill several books of which a couple dozen have already been published.

I know. I've been studying the debates for years, really. I've seen multiple "news" specials, listened to talk show debates on TV and radio, and even studied a WM topic in school for a period of time.

I really do know too much info about WM. But the question stands, is the customer guilty for convenient shopping? Or is there really something that the "wee wee little guys" can do to purchase better?

Seriously, this happens in EVERY industry. There's always a big guy, and then there are smart little guys who group together on purchasing.

[Iceaxe]

Vendors CAN stop selling whenever they want.

This statement proves you have NO clue about how WalMart conducts business.... do your homework!!!!

[Iceaxe]

Let me make this really simple.....

You may think it's easier to de-ice your windshield with a flamethrower, but there are repercussions. Serious repercussions.

[Sombeech]

Vendors CAN stop selling whenever they want.

This statement proves you have NO clue about how WalMart conducts business.... do your homework!!!!

done. And, I have actually WORKED for a vendor that sells to WM, which is Lifetime Products. They make the Basketball hoops, ping pong tables, and Picnic tables that you can find in WM.

I was there when Lifetime announced, with great joy, that Walmart and Sam's Club would now be buying our products. This was 8 years ago.

Now? Sure, they say they need WM, and it's a very high maintenance customer. This is because Lifetime shrugged off their other customers in the process, and BY CHOICE, wanted to make more money through WM's 1000's of stores.

It's the vendors who CHOOSE to sell to WM, and they dump their other customers. If Lifetime chose to say NO to WM, they'd just go back to selling the products in the western U.S. like Sports Authority (Gart's). And to my knowledge, nobody under 18 was working there.

This is a capitalist society. The vendor can choose to stop selling, and the customer can choose to stop buying. Money and greed make these decisions harder though.

Nobody will go to jail if they stop selling to WalMart.

[Udink]

You may think it's easier to de-ice your windshield with a flamethrower, but there are repercussions. Serious repercussions.

So far, all I've seen you write on this topic is basically, "Wal-Mart bad!" Oh, and something about my kids working in sweat shops. None of the Wal-Mart detractors have actually said why it's so bad and what the consequences are (just that they're serious). Anyone care to elaborate?

[Sombeech]

Anyone care to elaborate?

I'll explain. It's Katie Couric and Matt Lauer when they batt their eyelashes and tell us how WM destroys local businesses, because "Harmons" won't lower their prices.

Then I look down the street 10 blocks and see the 1 year old WM, and the 3 stripmalls surrounding it.

It was an open field 2 years ago. My small town's economy? up, up and away.

[Iceaxe]

Anyone care to elaborate?

Start here....

http://www.coopamerica.org/pubs/caq/...ondWalMart.cfm

[Sombeech]

Start here....

http://www.coopamerica.org/pubs/caq/...ondWalMart.cfm

from its low-wage, environmentally destructive factories in developing countries, to shuttered local businesses all across America.

Funny how they're saying that these factories now BELONG to WalMart
[quote=article]What

[Iceaxe]

You are still not getting it......

Nobody said Walmart was not a successful store.

The problem is the destruction they leave in their wake. The problem is WalMart is so big an powerful they can force their will.... and their will is not always pleasent.

Look at it this way..... just because I'm bigger, smarter and stronger then you it doesn't make it right if I kick your ass, shot your dog and rape your wife.

According to your reasoning you should have seen me coming and locked your door before I got to your house. I'm saying it wouldn't make any difference because I'd just kick the door down.

[Sombeech]

I'm saying it wouldn't make any difference because I'd just kick the door down.

Because the customer chooses WalMart? Aren't we forgetting the basic rule of Customer Service? C.S. will win the customers.

All I want to know is, WHAT ARE WALMART HATERS DOING TO WIN CUSTOMERS? What is their strategy? To bash WM? How does Big 5 Sports plan to win back my business?

My point is, bashing WM is just plain LAZY. Smith's Food & Drug is not improving their business for my sake. They forget that I HAVE THE CHOICE to go where I want, and they think it's cheaper to complain about WM, than to build a Purchasing Group.

Purchasing Groups exist. Why are they not utilizing this to match prices???? My employers belong to a Purchasing Group to compete against a worldwide wholesale business (my last job). And they succeed!

[stefan]

sombeech

i am not entering this debate for a few reasons. but i am getting the feeling that you're coming from that typical business/economics perspective which only allows you to argue and talk about issues in a very restrictive way. most people don't normally think along these lines, so you're naturally going to come into disagreement here.

there are a lot of positives to walmart. there are also a lot of negatives. this is true with any business, but it's not JUST because they are big that they are at the receiving end of a major attack, there is something there.

also you've been talking about two different aspects, consumers and other business owners. there are differences here and it can become confusing in a debate.

what have other business owners done to win back customers? oof. this question is a can of worms. too many directions one can go with it.


you read that article, that shane pointed out, and didn't make one comment that wasn't snappy. which is your prerogative. but it makes it seem like you are ignoring the major points, and finding little statements to tear apart and spin your way. likely the reason you're doing this is to put into question the validity of the entire article, otherwise, what's your point? your stance would be more transparent if you made comments on the bigger more relevant points.

if you're interested in reading and commenting on articles. how 'bout giving your perspective on this one?

The Wal-Mart debate: A false choice between prices and wages

cheers,

interesting discussion to wake up to, btw.

[James_B_Wads2000]

Here is a good documentry on the subject:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../walmart/view/





Thomson's jobs have moved to China, where cheap labor manufactures what the American consumer desires -- from clothing to electronics -- and can buy at "everyday low prices" at the local Wal-Mart.

FRONTLINE explores the relationship between U.S. job losses and the American consumer's insatiable desire for bargains in "Is Wal-Mart Good for America?" Through interviews with retail executives, product manufacturers, economists, and trade experts, correspondent Hedrick Smith examines the growing controversy over the Wal-Mart way of doing business and asks whether a single retail giant has changed the American economy.

"Wal-Mart's power and influence are awesome," Smith says. "By figuring out how to exploit two powerful forces that converged in the 1990s -- the rise of information technology and the explosion of the global economy -- Wal-Mart has dramatically changed the balance of power in the world of business. Retailers are now more powerful than manufacturers, and they are forcing the decision to move production offshore."

"Wal-Mart has reversed a hundred-year history that had the retailer dependent on the manufacturer," explains Nelson Lichtenstein, a professor at the University of California Santa Barbara. "Now the retailer is the center, the power, and the manufacturer becomes the serf, the vassal, the underling who has to do the bidding of the retailer. That's a new thing."

To understand the secret of Wal-Mart's success, Smith travels from the company's headquarters in Bentonville, Ark., to their global procurement center in Shenzhen, China, where several hundred employees work to keep the company's import pipeline running smoothly. Of Wal-Mart's 6,000 global suppliers, experts estimate that as many as 80 percent are based in China.

"Wal-Mart has a very close relationship with China," says Duke University Professor Gary Gereffi. "China is the largest exporter to the U.S. economy in virtually all consumer goods categories. Wal-Mart is the leading retailer in the U.S. economy in virtually all consumer goods categories. Wal-Mart and China are a joint venture."

When trade agreements were signed between the U.S. and China in the 1990s, bringing China into the World Trade Organization, American political and business leaders embraced the idea. China's 1.2 billion people were viewed as an enormous untapped market for American-made goods. The reality, experts say, is the opposite. China's exports to the U.S. have skyrocketed.

At a salary of only 50 cents an hour or $100 a month, Chinese labor is an unbeatable bargain for international business. And the Chinese government is doing everything it can to be sure the country's infrastructure supports the export business. Ten years ago Shenzhen's main port did not exist. Today it's on the verge of becoming the third busiest port in the world.

Wal-Mart estimates it imports $15 billion of Chinese goods every year and concedes that the figure could be higher -- some estimates range as high as $20 or $30 billion. Company executives are quick to point out they have always scoured the globe for low cost suppliers to benefit the American consumer.

"We do depend on products from around the globe to draw our consumers into the stores," says Ray Bracy, Wal-Mart's vice president for federal and international public affairs. "We feel they need to have the best product, the best value, at the best price we can achieve."

Some experts contend Wal-Mart's "everyday low prices" are causing a clash between the interests of Americans as workers and the desires of Americans as consumers.

"If people were only consumers, buying things at lower prices would be just good. But people also are workers who need to earn a decent standard of living," says economist Larry Mishel of the Economic Policy Institute. "The dynamics that create lower prices at Wal-Mart and other places are also undercutting the ability of many, many workers to earn decent wages and benefits and have a stable life."

Economist Brink Lindsey of the Cato Institute sees it another way. "I think Wal-Mart is good for America," he says. "Wal-Mart is doing what the American economy is all about, which is producing things consumers want to buy

[Sombeech]

Please, not another anti-walmart article! I have stuff to do today! There are thousands of articles out there, please don't make me read them all! All I want to know is WHAT ARE THE ANTI WM'S DOING TO WIN MY BUSINESS?

Low wages? The customer does not care about this when Energizer batteries are $3 cheaper. THE CUSTOMER DOES NOT HOLD THE RESPONSIBILITY OF DOING WALMART HOMEWORK!!!!! This is something that you do not understand. You have to compare customers to sheep. They do not have to think. They will go where it is convenient.

If your plan is to "educate" all of the customers, you have a very, very long and difficult job to do ---- and it won't be successful.

The majority of middle-class america will NEVER be interested in the economical debates, and this is why they will continue to shop there. The competitors have to focus on customer service. Can I stress this enough?

[price1869]

I love walmart. Hooray Capitalism.

and for all you "low wage, sweatshop" nut jobs, I guess you better throw away all of your clothes, shoes, lots of your gear, food, etc.

wah wah wah, cry me a river and throw me a paddle for all the poor folk who have a competetive advantage at making stuff.

[moabfool]

...but I don't completely refuse to shop there. Probably the biggest reason I don't go into Wal-Mart is the fact that I feel like I'm a third world country. It's so crowded and it takes forever to find what I'm looking for. I have to walk sooo far (not so much of a problem when I'm hiking mind you) to get from one part of the store to another. And don't even get me started about the parking situation or driving past the entrance doors. When I go to K-Mart (which is also a big box store and kills local small business) I find what I want quickly and I get right out. And if you watch closely other stores have better prices.

I think some of the other discount stores are really missing out on a marketing strategy here. I'll even throw it at them for free. "If you didn't save time did you really save money?" Seriously, think about it. If time is money shouldn't people think about saving a half hour of their day/life instead of saving a lousy $.06 on potato chips and toilet paper?

I watched the Frontline episode that James_B_Wadds2000 mentioned. It basically said that Wal-Mart isn't a master of customer service so much as a master of marketing. They do not sell for less as they claim. Sure they suck you in with a low price (called a "price point"), but when you see the cheap item it's exactly that, cheap. So you look for something of better quality, which they have, but chances are that it's not the lowest price in town on a particular model or brand.

Even apples to apples they aren't cheaper. I was buying laundry detergent, Tide, at Wal-Mart. If I remember correctly it was $5.46 (40 load box) or something like that. I'd only buy a couple boxes at a time becuse it wasn't that good of a deal (other places would have them 2/$10 sometimes). I assumed they had the lowest price because Wal-Mart always has the lowest price, ALWAYS. One day I stopped into K-Mart and their regular price was $5.12. Well, I went back to Wal-Mart to compare. They had a "New Low Price" on Tide, $5.78-ish. Weasels.

I usually shop other places, but the 24-hour convenience is nice given the selection. If you ever need to buy motor oil at 2AM or the hose feeding your toilet has sprung a leak you're in luck. Wal-Mart is open. Luckily for me their music selection sucks or I'd spend way more impulse money there. I do have to avoid the movies. I love digging through the $5.50 movie bin. I've found some crazy stuff in there.