Canyoneerings Most Controversial Figure

[Iceaxe]

Years ago, my first time down the Squeeze I went down to the first drop and returned, just like Steve recommended in his guidebook.

That's like going on a date to an expensive restaurant, buying tickets to the opera, actually siting through the complete opera without falling asleep, buying drinks afterwards......... and getting a goodbye handshake at the door.

[Scott P]

Steve Allen is in it to deceive newby canyoneers into thinking the Squeeze is too dangerous for anyone but himself to descend.

Not Newbies, but everyone. His books claim that they are geared towards hard core canyoneers, not Newbies. I do find it strange that he so grossly over-exaggerates the difficulty of everything. For good entertainment, read his write up of Death Hollow.

On the other hand, MK often ommits telling us about difficulties that might be encountered, so that is just as bad in some ways.

Maybe the two could get together and learn from each other. Never happen though.

[stefan]

I do find it strange that he so grossly over-exaggerates the difficulty of everything.

Wrona makes the following claim:

"You can also trust Steve's difficulty ratings to be
deliberately overstated in order to prevent people
from sandbagging themselves."

[Scott P]

Wrona makes the following claim:

"You can also trust Steve's difficulty ratings to be
deliberately overstated in order to prevent people
from sandbagging themselves."

So, in other words, Steve Allen sandbags canyoneers via the opposite method that Kelsey uses to sandbag them.

I just finished Death Hollow, which is among the most hard core adventures in the state, and the two key words are death and hard core, from someone whom knows their canyoneering. Since I can do that, I'm ready for Heaps.

Or, I just finished Cable Canyon, which Steve Allen calls impossible. I've just done the impossible, so I'm ready to take on Bishop or Near Death Experience. After all, if I can do something a hard core canyoneer beta's as impossible, I must have done one of the most difficult slots out there.

When asking for partners for a canyon you know is going to be difficult, you want to be safe (as well as anyone coming to be very safe), and people want to come because they are "very experienced canyoneers". When you ask them what canyons, they will list ones like Subway, Mystery, or Quandary. It's a real safety issue, and can lead to trouble. It's better not to give one a false impression of what all difficult canyons are like.

I don't agree with either method (Kelsey's or Allen's). Just tell it how it is, and don't under exaggerate, nor over exaggerate the difficulties of a canyon. Just give the rating and tell it how it is in an accurate manner. Tom Jones and Shane seem to do a pretty good job of this. MK and SA are too far on either side.

[rockgremlin]

I just finished Death Hollow, which is among the most hard core adventures in the state, and the two key words are death and hard core, from someone whom knows their canyoneering. Since I can do that, I'm ready for Heaps.

Or, I just finished Cable Canyon, which Steve Allen calls impossible. I've just done the impossible, so I'm ready to take on Bishop or Near Death Experience. After all, if I can do something a hard core canyoneer beta's as impossible, I must have done one of the most difficult slots out there.

Oh my hell!!!! Cable is cake-walk!! How could he make such a gross over-statement!!!

[Scott P]

Cable is cake-walk!! How could he make such a gross over-statement!!!

The full Cable is indeed challenging, but there is a difference between someone experienced calling something impossible and just calling it challenging. Big difference.

Which do you say it is?

Challenging or impossible?

There is also a danger in calling it a cakewalk, and publishing it that way (which Kelsey often does). Just tell it how it is. It is a challenging canyon that anyone doing should have a fair amount of experience before doing it, but not impossible .

[PunchKing]

Done = not Impossible

[stefan]

Cable is cake-walk!! How could he make such a gross over-statement!!!

The full Cable is indeed challenging, but there is a difference between someone experienced calling something impossible and just calling it challenging. Big difference.

Which do you say it is?

Challenging or impossible?

There is also a danger in calling it a cakewalk, and publishing it that way (which Kelsey often does).

First yes there is great danger in calling it a cakewalk.

impossible is a relative term. for some large fraction of the readership, this statement may be accurate and, possibly, he's speaking to them, erring on the side of caution. he also knows that those who wish to explore further will do so without beta, as he won't provide it. possibly he's also fearing that those canyoneers who have no qualms with bolting but aren't capable of descending the canyon otherwise would resort to bolts. so he's suggesting that no one go.

one criticism of that book is that he doesn't talk at length about the possibilities of doing such technical canyons without bolts, using this as a forum to encourage the no bolt ethic.

everyone writes differently. but you can safely say that people are less likely to get themselves in trouble with steve allen's books than mike kelsey's.

[Scott P]

Another thing that has happened as a result of Steve Allen calling canyons impossible, and pubishing them that way, is that people have translanted "impossible" to mean impossible without a bolt kit and several bolts". Several canyons were bolted up as a result of this not long after they were published.

[rockgremlin]

Cake walk compared to SA's verdict of "impossible."

It's a challenge, but definitely not impossible. It's a 3B3 (or 4) for crying out loud.

Impossible = 4B4X

Or even better....Impossible = 4C4X

[Iceaxe]

I believe the most important item for a guidebook author is to be consistent with their ratings so that once you get a "feel" for the author you are comfortable trusting his descriptions.

[PunchKing]

Cake walk compared to SA's verdict of "impossible."

It's a challenge, but definitely not impossible. It's a 3B3 (or 4) for crying out loud.

Impossible = 4B4X

Or even better....Impossible = 4C4X

Nothing is impossible, don't yous guys watch any movies.

[Scott P]

I believe the most important item for a guidebook author is to be consistent with their ratings so that once you get a "feel" for the author you are comfortable trusting his descriptions.

I agree. Too bad that all authors weren't realitively consistant with each other!

I mean seriously, someone picking up Butchad's, Kelsey's, and Allens book, and do a hike using each book. The experience is going to be very different.

PS, if anyone thinks Kelsey's book are vague on deatails and diffiulties, try one of Butchard's.

His books are Kelsey's taken to the extreme, only with harder routes, more vague details, more exposure, and no maps. Some of Buchard's routes would likely make Kelsey (and certainly me) piss his pants. Using that book will scare the piss out of anyone in no time.

Butchard's books are like Kelsey's, but taken to the extreme, but surpringly, Buchard is well respected, even among the Park Service. Butchard even advocated using an ice axe to chip with in his books.

I imagine that the contraversy or lack there of between Kelsey and Butchard lies in the time period. Buchard's book were written in the 1970's. Kelsey's are written now. Apparently what is controversial now wasn't in the 1970's.

I imagine that less people actually get into trouble using Butchard's book because his descriptions are so vague and the routes so difficult that newbies (or even most of the hard core) wouldn't be able to find the routes in the first place!

[Scott P]

Cake walk compared to SA's verdict of "impossible."

Yep. I have to admit that without any beta, it still was exciting. Very much so in fact, and was great fun. Not dangerous, just fun!

Impossible = 4B4X

Imaly, naked and ropeless version during November?

Or even better....Impossible = 4C4X

Heaps in a monster flash flood?

[Millcreek 3640]

Controversial AND (now) Influential?

The numbers on the dice just got smaller.
And the tail on the donkey, it shrunk too.
But then of course, it's J Smith's view,
and WHO really has the guy been chatting with?
Possibly a number of folk, but in what corners?

Memories fail and evidence grows stale.
Yes counselor Card, sharks slip at times
in SL's upper Millcreek area.

* Salute the King. Cheers and Jeers greeted the Bush Boy
when he visited SLC. I know which rally I went to and it
wasn't the one at the airport - thank you. And wasn't
it painfully clear - salute the KING....

* Other prominent canyoneers.

Bo Beck, is in that respected top tier.
Manager of St. George Mt. shop. Big Gun on
Zion SAR squad, and a humble gentleman at that;
very polite, soft spoken yet prominent canyoneer.

And how could one forget bare bottom Brez...
who toured most of the zion canyons with shoes,
a harness and birthday suit. Steve Brez....(sp?)
Oh that day at the start of technical Kolob trip...
couple of guys and a few gals, all suited up
in their birthday suits, to accompany Mr. Brez
down that watery course...and then a zion ranger
stepped out of the willows and walla...here's your
misdemeanor citation folk. Brez has his own web site,
has quite the reputation and given the opportunity,
would comfortably sit at the head of a canyoneering throne.
I spent a nite with the chap in cold cold Goosecreek.
He smoked his big fat cigar and chugged on some wild
turkey and told wild tales of when he was an "inmate"
and then a counselor at the Wayne County youth correction
facility. Mythical Indian spirits that walk along Pleasant Creek.
to Brez, they are more than mythical, they are real.

*Scott Patterson - why not. He graces these pages
frequently - and the egroup. Has his own Uinta's guide
book and his well organized "paint by the numbers" web
site features off trade route paths that many have not
traveled. Once upon a time he led Wasatch Mt. Club
canyoneering trips - a little controversy traveled with him,
maybe or maybe not. He's reportedly a gentleman.
And he's tarried along with MK on many reported travels.

Ray O'Neil - Zion Permit System and point man when cyn citizen
complaints are lodged. Ray doesn't relish the permit and complaints
side of the job. For years he oversaw the SAR activity
and was and is a talented outdoors person. He fits the
bill - in some corners - as controversial and influential,
but generally only in the "duck pond" of ZNP. On the personal
side he's a real gentleman and works to get along with most.

Edward Abbey - he's really the dude that started it all...
desert solitaire, monkey wrench...brought all those
eastern and Midwestern folk out to redrock country.
You could NEVER meet a more controversial figure.
I met the guy a handful of times and was there at his wake.
A world class character but a brilliant writer and raconteur.

And on the heels of Abbey - well, first the San Raphael,
then Dark and White Canyons and then the Escalante.
Three volumes and the editors at the U of U claim he's doing
still another book? He speaks and shows slides at SUWA
gatherings, has been known to say "incredible" 200 times
in one 50 minute slide show. He's now reportedly married,
no longer leads Sierra Club outings in the desert. Yes folk,
the word "wild" disappeared shortly after his three volumes
graced wasatch front bookstores. All those technical canyons
we do in the swell - well they were mostly word of mouth in the
80's and mid 90's and then walla, the leaping lemmings filled
the canyon corridors. But then he never posts on canyon egroups,
most active canyoneers have not met the guy and only certain
parties have traveled with this reported gentleman - that seriously
tamed a lot of former wild country - YES a big salute (or jeer)
for Colorado's (why didn't he do books on Colorado) Steve Allen.
The man really made his mark with his three books...big time!!!

And then it takes a a person that can read,... he read of Abbey and he bought Allen's books and traveled Allens canyons and then walla,
MK transformed his identity from one that traveled the mountains and desert to to the one that traced all of Steve Allens, footnoted small type
technical canyons in the CP. But Kelsey had a problem with the
Zion area - Allen had done no book - and so recruits lined up
and escorted him - through Zion - and through the Swell...Scott
and Nat are featured prominently in his text. Yes Kelsey needed
partners for canyoneering - the soloist sharing time with others- wow!

Public Figures vs. Private Citizens. The private view of so many
active canyoneers - controversial or influential - is so often slanted
and often largely hidden.

Spend time, a lot of time with someone in the outdoors & spend
time with them indoors, when they are relaxing or stressed.
Pay attention to how they feel about themselves and how they
attend and treat others - indifferent or altruistic. Many of these
prominent souls also love to "talk and write and post and guide
and reprimand" and some get very defensive when challenged.
Some like people, others are loners. Some are secure, others
insecure. Some care about others- some are quite self centered...
most are multi talented technically and academically, still some are
dysfunctional socially - but who amongst us doesn't have some flaw(s)
in their quiver? Ego, vanity, control...incapable of self-criticism...
always right and often wronged. The glove or slipper fit? Maybe, maybe not, all in the eye of the beholder.

(But what does it matter most would say, put away the thought of personality and lets do a canyon - and some can do it - put on an illegal smile and carry on. But others, well the personality slips, and gets
in the way - even in the canyons.)

I've spent some time with most of these parties - arranged
for S Allen to speak at the last year SUU program....but
I should note, I've not spent time with kelsey. Only know
people that know and spend time with him.

Anyway, all these icons have their style and manner, and some
days, and on some occasions some of these folk show
their true blue color - or at least another side than what the
perceived public view seems to be. But most of the time half of these folk are charismatic caring souls.

Oh well, none of us are ever on full time good behavior,
but then some seem to slide more often than others and then,
well, a reputation sprouts and grows.

Yes there is quite the cast of characters in the "public eye"
in the canyoneering community.

Bless all these most interesting, passionate and multi talented souls that grace (and to a large degree guide) our growing canyoneering community.

And a big hand to Sir Shane for offering an alternative
bulletin board that has a sense of organization to it. And a
thanks to Shane for assisting so many whenever queries
or requests are made- that's the sign of a gentleman.

Maybe I'm living in a time warp. When his books came out,
Allen was the guy - but then Tom's web site appeared,
and then Shane's and then Kelsey launched a canyoneering
text and then Ram (who needs to work) who travels in the
outdoors 20 days a month trumped most "practicing canyoneers."
And then Rich Carlson moved from AZ to Cedar City.

Allen was the guy, but in my view is NO MORE. In the headlights
as your vehicle passes down the night road - it's not deer you
will spot glaring at you - in canyoneering corridors - at least
in 2006 - it's T Jones, Sir Shane, M Kelsey and/or the King Rich Carlson.
And it just depends which highway you travel, to find which
night the headlights "shine" on this or that guy. (excuse me ladies)

So thanks shane for ringing the bell, controversial/influential canyoneering figure? A most interesting theme, at least to me.

And kudos to the rest of us that work in offices/or at jobs
most of the rest of our lives - and then have yards, families, neighbors, faith's, interests and demands - and or pains or ache or poor health - that in turn keeps us holed up far from any "tempting canyon" and even farther from any influential or controversial canyoneer.

Have a good Friday, weekend and Labor Day cyn bloggers...

SL in SLC

[stefan]

one thing i like about your post SL is that it recognizes how forums can make one "influential and/or controversial."

at times a book serves as the only access and testament to one's pursuits, ideas and passions. now the internet can serve the masses, creating a level playing field, allowing for anyone a chance at the public eye, or at least in the internet canyoneering community [and the many other communities].

while i agree that the most influential people today either write books, make websites, and/or participate in the internet forums, i can't help but wonder about the many who never participated in any of these or who have left such forums and perhaps only watched them. while these folks are by no means very influential/controversial, they may be equally, if not more, active in the outdoors, but would appear as ghosts, with footprints, natural anchors and webbing possibly being their only recognizable signatures. if it weren't for his books, extensive trip guidings, slideshows and such, steve allen and cronies would be invisible to almost all. yet their explorations and accomplishments are vast and progressive.

[rockgremlin]

Typically when a post is longer than 100 words I have a tendency to skip over it. The one exception to this is when SL posts. I really enjoy reading them. They are considerate, well written, entertaining and thoughtful. Do you write books SL? If you don't, you should.

[Iceaxe]

Controversial AND (now) Influential?

The "influential" was my addition and not Mr. Smith's. According to Mr. Smith the one person nearly everyone mentioned was Kelsey and their opinion of him varied greatly form both ends of the spectrum. This marked him as most controversial.

Personally I agree with his assessment that Kelsey is the most controversial.

As for who Mr. Smith has spoken with and how he formed his opinions for his documentary I am going to guess it will be heavily weighted by the ACA, ACA membership and the ACA point of view. After all, they have co-hosted the ACA/SUU conference for the last two years, they are both headquartered out of Cedar City and Cedar is an ACA stronghold.

[rockgremlin]

As for who Mr. Smith has spoken with and how he formed his opinions for his documentary I am going to guess it will be heavily weighted by the ACA, ACA membership and the ACA point of view. After all, they have co-hosted the ACA/SUU conference for the last two years, they are both headquartered out of Cedar City and Cedar is an ACA stronghold.

In light of this recent info, I change my vote from MK to Rich Carlson.

[Millcreek 3640]

Mike Kelsey- Shadowy figure he is - easy target. Not directly in the public eye. Still the man has a good deal of talent, prowess and has been a spartan outdoors man for so many years. His books have left a mark though. And his forthcoming text will do more benefit/damage? Yes a real consequence as more wild lands are tamed, but more leaping lemmings will jump into canyons and shout glee - and merriment in many corners will arrive! And the gravity of it all, will likely pull me too/darn. One day pray tell Kelsey will retire? And the desert can take a rest.

Stefan - Thanks for your cogent insightful views. I'm very aware of legions that grace the outdoors of the CP and are never heard from or seen by the general public. My previous posts related to "public figures" and yet I was/am aware of a number of folk "that are prominent " that have never seen or heard of most canyon text writers, pay no attention to canyon internet sites and never wander into the mosaic of internet bulletin boards. Their inner gravity pulls them to the mountains or desert and the reward is simple and pure and always it's a quiet grace honoring mother nature, the flora, fauna,water and glistening desert night sky. Yes salute all the souls that never rise (or fall) to the spotlight of public figure drama.

Reminds me of an old line - What's the sign of a Great Person?
One who makes others feel great.

RG - Rock Gremlin - thanks to you too your your kind remarks. I wrote outdoor pieces for the SLC alternative press for years, and then tired of it - most of what I penned landed in the bottom of canary cages. I still do pieces occasionally, but most often read. Recently paying much attention to geo-politcal blogs found in the Washington Post and in Foreign Affairs.

One day Shane can post a query, comment or note re outdoor/nature riters and books and folk can chime in. The spirited books I read relating to others travels in the desert are an integral part of my connection to the desert and enlighten, engage and educate me. The desert for so many years has not been just a place I visit. It's simply another home I travel too - and miss when I am away. Same for the foothills and mountains that I'm so connected to.

We - in the Intermountain West - are lucky to live so close to such wonders. But takin/makin the time to get there (drive), lately, SO MANY diversions, but life is good. I still try to fit in most days a 3-5 mile walk in the foothills.

OK the curtains closed - Kelsey gets the crown.
Now what's the next act in the play?

end