Canyoneerings Most Controversial Figure

[Iceaxe]

I had an interesting conversation last night with Jon Smith, If you are wondering who the heck is Jon Smith, he is the guy making the Colorado Plateau Canyoneering documentary.

Canyoneering "The Movie"
http://www.suu.edu/ss/outdoors/video/06-preview.html

Anyhoo he mentioned that one person has the unique distinction of being the most controversial figure in CP Canyoneering. Anyone want to venture a guess on who this person might be?

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Based on limited experience, I would say "Mr. K" takes the prize, hands down... although you seem to try you're best to stir the pot when you get the chance...

[stefan]

although you seem to try you're best to stir the pot when you get the chance...

[Iceaxe]

although you seem to try you're best to stir the pot when you get the chance...

I only succeeded in making it to number 2 on the list. I promised I would try harder next year

I'll let a few more folks take a guess before I reveal the masked man....

[FOX]

I've got to say M. K. as well but (and I don't know him) Dave Black could win that honor.

[utidcapaco]

I'm going to have to agree with the majority thus far on "the chopper" (M.K.).

[rockgremlin]

Mr. Kelsey...hands down.

[Millcreek 3640]

Jon Smith - Controversial CP Canyoneering Figure?

Well pray tell, myself and others got to speak with and
spend time with Prof. Jon when he joined us in the Roost
this past May. Originally from Hawaii he transplanted to
Cedar after getting his PhD in Knoxville TN.
His wife Ann heads up the SUU Outdoor Center and co-
hosted last years - and this years - SUU ACA Canyoneering Conf.
Got to meet and spend time with Ann last fall and then meet,
do canyons and chat with Jon. A most talented, splendid
and delightful duo - and they have a family.

Controversy is a slippery term. Prominent Public Figures
in the CP canyoneering arena - those with strong views....
and wide public exposure: R Carlson, T Jones...
other prominent folk with moderating styles - Charlie Oliver,
Steve Ramrass, Dave Black, and then of course the
ever guiding light Shane. All of the above have an identity
and strong connection to the Canyoneering Field.
Opinions circulate re the above. Controversy comes
and goes with some!!! more than others.

And a tier down - but still prominent in many circles are
Mike Dallin, Neil Wilkinson,. Hank Moon, Brian Cabe....
(cabes all over the map - climbing, ice, mountaineering,
gear, and canyoneering "firsts."

And kudos to two real gentleman that lately are not controversial,
but are the semi-kings of canyoneering on the CP - with not the slightest hint of anything other than skill, courtesy and grace - Greg Cornelious
and Ryan Cornia. Jon knows about and them too.

Now Mr. Kelsey: for the most part - up until he launched
in the late 90's into harnesses and ropes - was to most
a complete isolated stranger - known only through his books.
Few knew of his personality and or style. And yet the prominence
of his books - in some corners - led him to be followed
and/or scorned. Controversy has been an easy companion to M.

Jon Smith is a bright and very soft spoken and polite gentleman.
He like most of us would hardly dare speak other than a kind
word about the quiver of prominent canyoneering voices.

But the real ripple that often resonates relates to those that
speak loudly and often - and rarely hear, pay attention to
or care about feedback... and so the back up you see, is to
announce MK as the controversy, but that is really a diversion
of sorts, for controversy swirls in so many corners - some that many would never consider - like who have past Zion Park officials been
overly concerned about - who's controversial to them?
Who's controversial to land managers in the Swell, Robbers Roost,
N Wash & Escalante? Kelsey is very much an aside to some of them.

My ears heard, when the word controversy came up
in front of J Smith and others. But that bright sticker -
well it would attach to more than one, at least in my view...
Yes, lotsa names were bantered about when lips moved
and that slippery slide of controversy was alluded to.

So I'll say - publicly - beats me? (Well maybe not?)
Best to John and to rest of us - hoping controversy
is not the moniker that gets solidly stuck to "our" self identity.

Yes, it's a semi interesting quick question - more interesting
though - to me - is the nuance of dialog surrounding
certain souls, that happen to get up each morning, and
be the person they are, and then before you know it,
are swimming in a sea, of what? well, controversy.

Have a safe time all - take no risks - and avoid
the rest of your lives, crossing the line of controversy.

Live well, laugh often, love much.
And salute the king - Mr. Bush - as he lands
in the City of Salt tonite.
(yes, speaking of controversy)

SL in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Good stuff.... maybe "Controversial Figure" is not the correct term, although it was the term used...... how about.... The name that came up more often then any other in conversation and interviews?

I was actually thinking of starting this thread the other day with the title "Who do you think is the single most influential figure in Colorado Plateau canyoneering?"

In my humble opinion the most influential and most controversial are the same person.

And as for Brian in SLC being all over the map..... that is no lie.... A walking history book that likes to keep us on the right track.

You guys sticking with your original votes? Anyone think the most influential and most controversial are different people?

[nat]

Jon Smith - Controversial CP Canyoneering Figure?

Live well, laugh often, love much.
And salute the king - Mr. Bush - as he lands
in the City of Salt tonite.
(yes, speaking of controversy)

SL in SLC

Hmm..., I don't think I'll salute the king. However, I have to agree with the others that Mile K is probaly the most contraversial figure canyoneering on the CP. He certainly raises the hackles of more people, including other well known canyoneers than anyone I know of. True, he is a bit of a loner and not really part of the web based community, but he certainly has an effect, positive and/or negative.

[rockgremlin]

The only other character (besides MK) I could think of would be Mr. Tom Jones. He has been known to refer to himself as "The Emporer" after all. Many people find him offensive because or his intolerance and dare I say hatred towards bolts. Not only does he preach against them, but he removes them every chance he gets, and offers no apologies. I think he comes across as a little abrasive to some. I'm sure the Zion folks butt heads with him from time to time as well.

[Scott Card]

Nice to hear from you Millcreek. Well written. I wouldn't put Tom Jones at the top of the most controversial list. He may speak his mind and remove unnecessary bolts here an there but I think he has the sport and the canyoneering communities best interest at heart. If you have been called out by him it is to correct a mistake or technique that he perceives is dangerous--at least that is how I took it when I was dressed down a time or two. I appreciated it.

My vote goes to ZNP back country policy makers. Now that is controversy

[bruce from bryce]

Since you decided to add the word influential my vote would be for the Rameroooo from Fort Collins. Incredible memory, leads, discusses without personal agendas and has a tremendous affect on many canyoneers.

Now for controversial MK would be my guess and yes, The Iceman would be right up there. He so much likes to add the controversial comment to arouse the throngs to a hightened level ready to string up the naysayer on the nearest natural anchor.

The longer he holds out the answer the higher the blood pressure of the awaiting thousands on this website.

[Scott P]

Many people find him offensive because or his intolerance and dare I say hatred towards bolts. Not only does he preach against them, but he removes them every chance he gets, and offers no apologies

I really wouldn't agree with that. Tom Jones told me that he has probably placed more bolts in canyons than anywhere out there, but he also removes them as well. He says there are "bolt appropriate areas". You may ask him what I said and see if it is true.

[rockgremlin]

Many people find him offensive because or his intolerance and dare I say hatred towards bolts. Not only does he preach against them, but he removes them every chance he gets, and offers no apologies

I really wouldn't agree with that. Tom Jones told me that he has probably placed more bolts in canyons than anywhere out there, but he also removes them as well. He says there are "bolt appropriate areas". You may ask him what I said and see if it is true.

No I agree - but I've never heard Tom actually come out and admit to placing a bolt. Usually when TJ speaks of bolts, it is with contempt.

Personally, I like TJ, and I appreciate what he has done and is doing for the canyoneering community. My main point is that many people (most of whom don't know him well) find his style a little too brazen and presumptuous.

[Iceaxe]

This is really turning into an interesting thread and a lot of note worthy names have been mentioned for both most controversial and most influential. I also find it interesting that some of you do not consider these two to be the same person. I

[Iceaxe]

discusses without personal agendas

Every name I have seen mentioned so far has a personal agenda, and everyone of them go to great lengths to promote their agenda. Some of the agendas are easy to figure out, some are flying under the radar. Figure out the different agendas and it will give you a better insight....

Can any of you figure out the agenda of each name mentioned?

[Scott P]

No I agree - but I've never heard Tom actually come out and admit to placing a bolt

How's this one from his own site (it's an drilled angle, but..):

http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/quan/index2.htm

And finally, we get to the real "Business", where the Direct Route starts. This is where I placed a drilled angle 2 years ago, which some people think sucks unwary people into the Direct. The Mission was to descend the canyon using all natural anchors and pulling the superfluous bolts (which were placed by Tom).

[Scott P]

Can any of you figure out the agenda of each name mentioned?

Tom wants to sell gear and do more canyoneering.

Mike wants to sell more books, but wants to do everything his way.

Shane is in it for the women, but it isn't working too well.

Ram is in it so he can watch the fat guys get stuck in the tight spots.

I've gone canyoneering with all four above and they are all nut cases, but I'm no better.

Brian is in it for the fun of debating on the web.



PS, how come no one mentioned Steve Allen? Too off the radar now?

[rockgremlin]

PS, how come no one mentioned Steve Allen? Too off the radar now?

Steve Allen is in it to deceive newby canyoneers into thinking the Squeeze is too dangerous for anyone but himself to descend.

Years ago, my first time down the Squeeze I went down to the first drop and returned, just like Steve recommended in his guidebook. Only later did I figure out how much fun I was missing out on, when MK published a complete route in his technical guidebook.

I didn't give Steve Allen permission to come canyoneer in my state, let alone publish crappy guidebooks about his experiences canyoneering in my state.