Neff's Canyon Cave

[Don]

As I mentioned..... a matter of ethics, not law....

Just curious.... is there some place on-line where the cave management plan can be viewed?

As long as this thread is getting bumped I’d love to see this question answered…

[hank moon]

Last I heard, Neff's is managed by the U.S. Forest Service, with a local Grotto serving as keeper of the key.

Though the cave has a storied history, it is pretty much a horror hole with poor rock (loose shale walls in some places), sketchy anchors, much slimy downclimbing and is sorely lacking in beauty or allure. I did it once and would never do it again (and that's coming from a former enthusiastic caver). NOT recommended.

The nature of the place precludes anything like a quick rescue ever happening there. "Very dangerous - you go first."

[jumar]

Though the cave has a storied history, it is pretty much a horror hole with poor rock (loose shale walls in some places), sketchy anchors, much slimy downclimbing and is sorely lacking in beauty or allure.

Which is the main reason I haven't done it yet. Lost interest...Plenty of other cool caves in Utah

[mcirque]

Though the cave has a storied history, it is pretty much a horror hole with poor rock (loose shale walls in some places), sketchy anchors, much slimy downclimbing and is sorely lacking in beauty or allure. I did it once and would never do it again (and that's coming from a former enthusiastic caver). NOT recommended.

This is exactly why I want to hear and see other peoples accounts of this cave. I have no desire to go in that thing (or ever will go in it). I will stick to kayaking, mountaineering, peak bagging, etc. However, I love learning about other peoples adventures. I'm just completely surprised by the lack of info on this place. You simply can't find pictures, cave maps, or accounts in the public domain (other than the one I posted above). I guess if it is just a crack in the earth of shale goo it's not worth talking about??

[canyoncaver]

The best account of exploration in Neff's Cave (and many other U.S. caves) is in William Halliday's book Depths of the Earth published in 1966. Neff's gets its own 14 page chapter titled "Our Deepest Cave." Neff's was indeed the deepest American cave for many years and to date only 12 American caves have been found that are deeper.

Please try and be at least somewhat open to the idea that locational secrecy can be a tool to protect caves from abuse, vandalism, and closure. The USFS will not give you the location because they are required by law not to. The Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988 makes it illegal for them to provide that information to the public. The FCRPA also makes cave locations ineligible for FOIA requests.

The reason Tom Jones and others cannot publish trip reports is because they went on a trip with a trip leader that signed a permit saying that such information would not be disseminated. It is not a law, nor a scare tactic. It is something that everyone on trips to Neff's agrees to in order to help protect the cave. It is part of the Salt Lake Grotto's agreement with USFS for managing Neff's cave. I'm sure that the management plan is not online, but should be obtainable from USFS.

This particular cave has to be gated and kept quiet so that it is not overrun with rescues. Sometimes a cave's nature and/or location demand some amount of secrecy for its protection. You all have noticed that this challenging, vertical cave is located right next to suburbia. If the cave was open and known to all, the rescues in there would be horrible and numerous enough that it would probably force USFS to implement an all-out closure. I don't need to remind anyone in Utah what can happen to a cave that is the scene of a gruesome accident and rescue.

None of these measures would be necessary for Neff's if 2 million people had not decided to move in right next to it. But they did, so here we are. If enough maps, directions, photos of the entrance, etc. get published online, then it is only a matter of time before some idiot goes up there, cuts the lock off and gets themselves hurt/killed. Then see what that does for public access.

I have bottomed Neff's once, and don't mind if I never do it again. Hank is right that it is something of a horror hole. I am glad I did it, and it is fun, but it is not really as beautiful or even as interesting as many Utah caves. Nowadays, it is not even the deepest cave in Utah, but is often used by folks training up to do deeper caves.

For now, if you want to see Neff's Cave, get yourself trained in single rope technique (SRT), caving safety, and cave ethics, and then contact USFS for access. It is the best deal we are going to get. Please don't screw it up!

[Iceaxe]

The USFS will not give you the location because they are required by law not to. The Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988 makes it illegal for them to provide that information to the public. The FCRPA also makes cave locations ineligible for FOIA requests.

Your statement is not exactly true.... after reading through both "The Federal Cave Protection Act of 1988" and the referenced "Section 552 of title 5, United States Code" here is what I get out of it.....

The government agency, which in this case is the USFS, is not required to give you the location of the cave under the Freedom of Information Act. The information can be managed and dispensed to those the USFS deems worthy...

"Illegal for them" and "Not required" are different animals..... at least to me..... which is why outsiders usually take cavers with a large gain of salt....

[canyoncaver]

Not sure I really get your point. Here is the exact wording:


Sec. 5. CONFIDENTIALITY OF INFORMATION CONCERNING NATURE AND LOCATION OF SIGNIFICANT CAVES.

• (a) IN GENERAL.-Information concerning the specific location of any significant cave may not be made available to the public under section 552 of title 5, United States Code, unless the Secretary determines that disclosure of such information would further the purposes of this Act and would not create a substantial risk of harm, theft, or destruction of such cave.
  
  
  This does not say "not required", it says "may not be made available....unless."
  
  In the case of Neff's, they have determined that disclosure of such information to the general public would NOT further the purposes of this Act and WOULD create substantial risk. Unless they deem that disclosure would further the purposes of the Act, then they are not allowed to make it available.
  
  You are correct, they may give out information to whomever they wish, as long as doing so does not violate FCRPA. You are not correct in your interpretation of FCRPA. Providing a map or directions to the general public on a sign or a website would most certainly create substantial risk and violate FCRPA, at least in this case. Therefore, doing so would be illegal.
  
  Just trying to shed some light on why there is secrecy involved in the management of this cave. It was nearly shut down soon after its discovery in the 1950s due to rescues and public outcry. The current arrangement has allowed it to stay open to some visitation. You may use whatever size grain of salt you wish, but I am merely trying to speak the truth, not hide it or twist it.

Could you give some examples of why "outsiders" must take cavers with a large grain of salt? I could easily say the same of climbers, but would not want to paint with so broad a brush. There are a few trustworthy ones out there. Same goes for cavers.

[Iceaxe]

Not sure I really get your point. Here is the exact wording:

No big deal really.... I just take some exception to your interpetation and syntax... to me you make this secert shit sound really scary..... it's not...

And you just gotta love the interwebs... finding the location of the cave takes a whole two minutes....

Waypoint and map of Neff's

The only way three guys can keep a secret is if two of them are dead.


And yes.... I can understand why you want to keep Joe Sixpack out of the cave.

[canyoncaver]

Yeah that's the same waypoint I found when I was first looking for the cave.

Scary how? No need to be afraid little feller.

Now I'm sure I don't get your point. Care to splain?

[Don]

...And you just gotta love the interwebs... finding the location of the cave takes a whole two minutes....

Waypoint and map of Neff's
The only way three guys can keep a secret is if two of them are dead...

We’re always trying to close the barn door after the horse is out. With all this easy to find information on the internet I think it’s clear that we should cement shut the entrance to Neff’s before someone gets killed!
(Please note: this post is very sarcastic.)

[bobb169]

LOL Always has been and always will be.............unless you are well known in a grotto you will not get into the good caves.........
Thats why I quit caving years ago.......got tired of the BS. You won't get a location and if you do someone always has the key that won't givie it to you. USFS or BLM locks en up and closes them for 'protection', alot of times on the request of cavers who 'will manage it' wanting their private reserve. what a laugh

[DSTRBD]

LOL Always has been and always will be.............unless you are well known in a grotto you will not get into the good caves.........
Thats why I quit caving years ago.......got tired of the BS. You won't get a location and if you do someone always has the key that won't givie it to you. USFS or BLM locks en up and closes them for 'protection', alot of times on the request of cavers who 'will manage it' wanting their private reserve. what a laugh

I was a VERY active member of the timp grotto years ago, I went to meetings, I wrote letters to keep caves open, we even donated time to help with the "relighting" of timp cave when that was being done all to still be "shuned" by the "founding" members of the grotto, We finally said to hell with it, let them have their "private reserve" of caves. If you want to join the "Stonecutters secret society" you might as well become a grotto member. Just don't plan on seeing any of the "good caves" for the first couple years your a member...

[Western]

All links no work. conspiracy?

[Iceaxe]

All links no work. conspiracy?

It's because some of the cavers turn into whiny little bitch's when someone posts a waypoint or TR.

Neff's Cave
N40° 40' 17", W111° 45' 10" - WGS84 datum

[hank moon]

Keeping caves a secret does nothing but serve those that are on the inside of the secret.

Shane, this is one area where you are off-base. I wonder if the "nothing but" is coming from your personal history in canyoneering? Secret canyons and secret caves are different animals. Caves (esp. ungated ones) are often kept secret to protect the cave itself, bat colonies, other sensitive biota, and/or other features of scientific interest. Caves and underground ecosystems are much more delicate than canyons and require greater care to preserve them.

Granted, there is a self-serving element to keeping certain caves secret, but "nothing but" goes too far. In the case of Neff's there is fear among cavers that too much visitation will lead to accidents, rescues, and eventual closure by the Forest Service. This fear is perhaps unjustified in its intensity, but many such closures have happened in the caving world. Once a cave becomes enough of a nuisance to land managers, it can reasonably be closed (and most caves are relatively easy to close, technologically speaking (just pour some concrete, as in Nutty Putty). It is a shame that the public seems to have so little control over access to "public lands" but it is a fact of modern life.

Whether posting Neff's coordinates will result in more visitation is moot; I do wonder why you are posting them here, if they are so easy to obtain via standard internet search?

[jumar]

Unfortunately closing caves is all too common. Hopefully we're all caving responsibly to not provide an excuse for a land owner to want to close them off permanently, like so many caves.

[Iceaxe]

Whether posting Neff's coordinates will result in more visitation is moot; I do wonder why you are posting them here, if they are so easy to obtain via standard internet search?

It just piss me off all the crap that goes on with regards to Neff's... The waypoint is posted on the Wiki page concerning Neff's.... but the cavers are always playing games with that waypoint and changing one number so it's miles off.... I stay out of the wiki waypoint fight, but I watch it with amusement. But I do feel giving people wrong information intentionally is a safety issue, not to mention really chickenshit.

If the forest service wants to regulate the cave that is their business, that is what we hired them to do, but all this other bullshit about messing with waypoints and using scare tactic's to get the uninformed to pull down webpages is bullshit. I have no desire to descend Neff's, but I enjoy seeing pictures and reading TR's from those that have.

[bigrockman]

I did Neff's a few years ago and it is not one I would do again either. It is sharp, wet, very dangerous and has virtually no decorations. It is an exhausting cave to do and one that made me very nervous while downclimbing. One person in our group almost got stuck in one spot and again nearly fell while down climbing a 30 ft deep crack.

I posted pictures of the cave on my blog (www.utahcaves.blogspot.com) but was forced to remove them. In the agreement to go in the cave you agree to not post pictures of the cave on the internet (a portion of the agreement I apparently overlooked).
It really is not worth doing other than to say that you have done it. The hike up to it is pretty grueling as well. If you want to do it you can obtain permission, but I would recommend Main Drain over Neffs any day. Now that is an amazing experience!