Experianced-Intermediate-Noob

[Iceaxe]

OK, this thought was prompted by a guy who lists "Experienced" on his canyoneering credentials. The guy has been doing tech canyons for about a year. But he has done a lot of canyons. He has been led, not a trip leader, through most the big boy trade routes and a few others..... you know the drill.... Heaps, Imlay, Kolob, Choprock, yada, yada.... he has been trip leader on the popular rap-n-swim kiddie routes... Mystery, Pine Creek, Leprechaun.....

So..... not picking on anyone in particular.... but what would you rate this guy?

Similar question for noobs..... it seems everybody who takes a canyoneering class and then does Pine Creek, Keyhole and Mystery claims "intermediate".....

Where do you draw the line between Noob, Intermediate and experience.... or do you have other categories?

When you meet partners on the internet and they claim noob, intermediate or experianced.... what do you expect?

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[rockgremlin]

Excellent question Shane, I'm glad you brought it up.

I would consider someone "intermediate" after he has done the canyons you listed above (the bolted trade routes), but then in addition to that, done at least 5-10 bolt-less canyons with only the knowledge of natural anchoring skills to rely on (such as Pandora's Box, Cable, Alcatraz, etc).

Also must be proficient at reading a topo map - route finding skills must be sharp.

Also must be able to display some kind of stemming skills. Experience in the North Wash canyons helps.

Must know how to escape keeper potholes.

And finally, must be able to tie the most common canyoneering knots (water knot, EDK, clove hitch (biner block), figure-8 (or overhand) with double fisherman backups, etc)



Without knowing anything else about your new friend, I would rate him pretty close to an intermediate. If intermediate was a 5, I would put him at a 3.5.

[shaggy125]

Well... this guys experience level sounds about like mine. One year ago from last May I took the ACA class, and have since done quite a few canyons including chop, heaps, imlay, etc... Some I was hesitantly thrown into but figured I'd be ok (Choprock was my fourth canyon of all time... a little scary for me). Some I signed up for because more experienced guys were leading, some (like Kolob) I kind of stumbled into leading a group of inexperienced noobs (didn't realize what I was getting into until it was too late). I would say I'm probably more experienced than some who have been doing the sport for only a year, but would not list myself as "experienced" if asked. I also of course brought navigation, scrambling, climbing, and other skills from prior hobbies. I still hesitate to move into the intermediate zone although I feel more and more confident in my abilities every trip. There is still much to learn for me. I think I would have to build more anchors, escape more potholes, rig more big long rappels, face more trying situations, learn more techniques, etc... before I could say I was experienced. Maybe I'm a noob, approaching intermediate, with some big canyons under my belt?

I would think the highest I'd rate your friend is intermediate, especially if he's followed in all the big canyons. A point I will make though is I'd consider him more experienced than someone who's been canyoneering for 5 years, but only been through half as many canyons. Your friends skills are probably more fresh since he uses them more often. I guess who he canyoneers with would have some bearing on it too. If he goes with the same intermediates every time and doesn't learn from them, he might not be as well rounded or "experienced" as someone who goes with lots of people trying to learn what works and what doesn't. Just my thoughts, then again I'm not a pro and love to hear the experienced guy's thoughts.

Eric.

[rockgremlin]

I'm pretty sure you're at least an intermediate Eric. You made Pandora's look like a kiddie canyon.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Hmmm. I'd be very hesitant to say experienced. Intermediate? Maybe. Sounds like he's headed in the right direction, though. Although its not a great idea, a fit and able noob can be taken through heaps, imlay, choprock, kolob, quandary direct, etc., and still be a newb when its all said and done. Its been done many times. With great leadership and easy conditions, these aren't really much more than rap-n-swim canyons if your leader is prepared to handle the potentially tricky stuff. Under false-experienced leadership? Scary. Newbs can lead newbs through canyons like Pine Creek, Mystery, Behunin, Leprechaun, and often do. I led them as a (cautious and as prepared as possible) newb. Learned a lot doing them, and helped me move toward a more intermediate ability and leading more difficult canyons. I know of a person who has probably done just as many canyons as I have, yet would not be comfortable leading a tough canyon, simply because he hasn't ever been the leader and learned the anchors, less common knots, advanced or emergency techniques, etc. Although not an experienced leader, he is an experienced intermediate canyoneer, and I'd have him along in any canyon. Leading trips is quite different than being led through. I prefer to be the leader when possible, as it adds to my experience, but don't mind going with more experienced leaders, as I learn a lot from them.

I would say I'm about Eric's level: intermediate, but definitely not advanced. I've co-led a trip through heaps, choprock, and several other intermediate/ advanced intermediate canyons, built quite a few natural anchors, done some pothole escaping, stemming, navigating/route-finding, tricky downclimbing, sequencing, ghosting, and been in more difficult canyons under expert leadership. I'd reserve the experienced label for those that are, er, more experienced?

[hesse15]

OK, this thought was prompted by a guy who lists "Experienced" on his canyoneering credentials. The guy has been doing tech canyons for about a year. But he has done a lot of canyons. He has been led, not a trip leader, through most the big boy trade routes and a few others..... you know the drill.... Heaps, Imlay, Kolob, Choprock, yada, yada.... he has been trip leader on the popular rap-n-swim kiddie routes... Mystery, Pine Creek, Leprechaun.....

So..... not picking on anyone in particular.... but what would you rate this guy?

Similar question for noobs..... it seems everybody who takes a canyoneering class and then does Pine Creek, Keyhole and Mystery claims "intermediate".....

Where do you draw the line between Noob, Intermediate and experience.... or do you have other categories?

When you meet partners on the internet and they claim noob, intermediate or experianced.... what do you expect?

.

mhh i think whom you are thinking about
in my case:
i am improving reading map skills
i can stem no problem in north wash
i can be used for tossing in a pothole keeper (that is also a skill!!!)

but i will prefer underrate as beginner canyonette and professional bikini poser!!!

I think the overrating is part of the male DNA
i got sometime with guys that were thinking to be stronger and better and they ended up being slower unpreparred and whining a lot
i consider canyoneer a sport in which better to e modest and willing to learn as much whithout brag about it.

i usual rate people also in base of how much they care of the group and made everybody safe trhough the canyon.
and they have good knowledge of rope work escape emergency situation.
is not doing an hard canyons that make a person intermediate!!!!

[Iceaxe]

Lets add a few more ingredients to the mix......

What if I told you there were some highly experienced canyoneers that I will not partner with because I believe they are an accident waiting to happen?

And.... what if I tell you there are noobs who I find are wonderful partners that I have no problems doing any canyon with? Including some of the big boys.

Anyone else notice these types of people?

I once had a wise old man tell me..... if you want epics look for guys who are always having epics and partner with them. And if you want to cruise through the adventure look for partners who are always cruising.....

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[rockgremlin]

What to you are characteristics that someone would have that would classify them as an "accident waiting to happen?"

[Sombeech]

It's always best to classify yourself in the level "lower" than what you think you are. This way, if it is suggested that you are "1 up", then it's a huge compliment.

If nobody says anything, then you didn't make an arse of yourself. Win-win situation.

[Iceaxe]

What to you are characteristics that someone would have that would classify them as an "accident waiting to happen?"

How about if nearly every trip they go on results in a near miss.... I guess this goes hand in hand with my "if you want epics go with partners who have ethics".



Actually this is probably a personal sixth sense kind of thing.... I watch some people make what I would consider frequent poor decisions. They have a history of escaping from bad predicaments by what I would consider the grace of god. The fact that they always seem to find themselves in a predicament to begin with is an indicator. They make decisions by group recommendation and not stepping up and taking command (group decisions are historically bad). These are some of my own personal guidelines. Your mileage may vary.

Have any of you met or partnered with someone you consider an

[rockgremlin]

Fortunately I've been out with a bunch of really good guys, so I haven't encountered anything like what you describe. Except for this one time...I went hiking up to Elephant Butte with this one dude....

[nelsonccc]

I would say you're intermediate if you've done most or all of the trade routes as well as some of the "big boys." So if somebody has lead most if not all of the below i would consider them experienced;
Mystery, Pine, Spry, Behunin, Englestead, Echo & Kolob, Heaps, and Imlay. Although i must say that I've been down canyons with people who have done all of the above and are expereinced but are also proud and don't want to listen to imput or look at a better or diferent attack plan. On the other side i've been with people who have only done Keyhole but are like sponges and will listen and obey and take the skills they do have (usually climbing) and learn how to apply and use them in a new skill set. My 2 cents worth.

[nelsonccc]

Forgot to say that i agree with shane on the noob issue. It seems like every time i do Pine there is some college kid in there who thinks his sh_t don't stink, blabbing on and on about how he's so good. When I asked him about the canyons he's done he got real vague and says "you know, lots of Zion canyons." I pressed for more details and could quickly see that the guy was blowing wind out of his butt. This same guy later on in Pine raps everybody down the last rappel including himself and leaves his rope tied with an eight to a locked biner on the chain. We sat there for like 30 minutes watching this guy trying to pull his rope and acting like we couldn't hear him. We even sent our first guy down to tell him that we couldn't hear him. I re-rigged his rope so it was tied to my pull cord and then went down. When i got down i told him that i wasn't sure what he was doing so i had left his rope. I laughed my butt off at his face when his rope came down with mine.

[rockgremlin]

Forgot to say that i agree with shane on the noob issue. It seems like every time i do Pine there is some college kid in there who thinks his sh_t don't stink, blabbing on and on about how he's so good. When I asked him about the canyons he's done he got real vague and says "you know, lots of Zion canyons." I pressed for more details and could quickly see that the guy was blowing wind out of his butt. This same guy later on in Pine raps everybody down the last rappel including himself and leaves his rope tied with an eight to a locked biner on the chain. We sat there for like 30 minutes watching this guy trying to pull his rope and acting like we couldn't hear him. We even sent our first guy down to tell him that we couldn't hear him. I re-rigged his rope so it was tied to my pull cord and then went down. When i got down i told him that i wasn't sure what he was doing so i had left his rope. I laughed my butt off at his face when his rope came down with mine.

Too funny!! Great story!!!

[marc olivares]

take it from a canyoneering Noob,
there's no shame in underselling yourself, everyone is a beginner at some point. and more often than not, the guys w/ the experience can easily pick out the ones that are full of BS.
overconfidence can be a scary trait to posses

[Iceaxe]

I re-rigged his rope so it was tied to my pull cord and then went down. When i got down i told him that i wasn't sure what he was doing so i had left his rope. I laughed my butt off at his face when his rope came down with mine.

Good story..... It's fun to mess with the noobs

Sometimes when I'm with noobs I tie the ropes together with a granny knot and then act like I'm going to rappel to see if they have are tough enough to speak up when they know something is really wrong.

I did this once with a guy name Dick Shear, the best part was he had left his video running and you can hear the entire dialogue of him trying to talk me out of the granny knot. Even better was the other experienced guys with me were backing me up that it was a good knot....

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