Knotted Rope - Swellfest 2006

[Iceaxe]

Below are a couple of my better pictures from Tom's San Rafael Swellfest. These are from the Saturady Knotted Rope Group.

[Scott Card]

Looks like a lot more water than what we encountered in Quandary on the same day. Is this normal ?...More water in Knotted Rope than Quandary? Did you go up Ramp? Looks like a fun canyon with a good group.

[Iceaxe]

We had a lot of water in Knotted Rope. I'm guessing it was 1/2 full. I would say the dry conditions you encountered in Quandary were unusual.

I just updated a couple of my route descriptions and more pics from the weekend can be viewed there.

Muddy Creek Gorge
http://climb-utah.com/SRS/mcgorge.htm

Knotted Rope
http://climb-utah.com/SRS/knotted.htm

[accadacca]

This buds fer yaaaaa'll!!

[Iceaxe]

Yeah, a group hiked down the Muddy River Gorge with cold beer and met us about mid canyon...... it was probably the best tasting beer I had all week.

[Iceaxe]

FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope. The canyon is much better without the pipes. Solving the first big keeper is interesting

There are easy ways to solve the problem that are not obvious and hard ways that are obvious....

I used to be a fan of keeping the pipes, but after doing the canyon and not using them I now think they should be removed if possible. The canyon is more fun and a little more challenging without the pipes. Only real danger is the first big keeper, and if you can't figure it out you can always turn around, hike back out, and come back anther day after improving your skills.

[hesse15]

ah

FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope. The canyon is much better without the pipes. Solving the first big keeper is interesting

There are easy ways to solve the problem that are not obvious and hard ways that are obvious....

I used to be a fan of keeping the pipes, but after doing the canyon and not using them I now think they should be removed if possible. The canyon is more fun and a little more challenging without the pipes. Only real danger is the first big keeper, and if you can't figure it out you can always turn around, hike back out, and come back anther day after improving your skills.

[Scout Master]

FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope

Any chance Marie Coray would still be alive if the pipes had not been removed?

[hank moon]

FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope

Any chance Marie Coray would still be alive if the pipes had not been removed?

Doesn't matter.

[rockgremlin]

FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope

Any chance Marie Coray would still be alive if the pipes had not been removed?

That was my same question....and I venture that the answer is yes.

[rockgremlin]

Doesn't matter.

Now we know who removed em.

[hank moon]

Doesn't matter.

Now we know who removed em.

[Iceaxe]

Any chance Marie Coray would still be alive if the pipes had not been removed?

Not if she broke her arm and fell in, climbing the pipes would be much harder then climbing a rope with loops tied into it.

FWIW: Tom has some good pictures of the old pipes in the pothole.
http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/swell/knotrope.htm
Watch the slideshow in the fourth pictures down. The guy on Tom's site is doing this the hard way, the simple way was to take the tall pipe sticking out and pole vault accross.

[hesse15]

page 46 kelsey book description for miner hollow aka knotted rope
bypass the first group of PH on some narrow ledges to the left ,you will come to a 125 m section with several deep PHs.
in the first 2 PH you will find pipes carried down from above by hikers.use these pipes to help get around two, 3m-deep PHs on the right side

i think will be nice that after something is in a route description in a book it will not modified.
not anybody that go in the outdoors is connected to interet any single day.

could be personal agreement or disagreement of what people write in a book
but regarding bolts or other safety device mentioned to finish an hike safely in a canyon i do not think they must be removed by humans.If is a flood that remove them is an act of God, if is a human act is a act of xxxxxxxx


quote="hesse15"]ah

FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope. The canyon is much better without the pipes. Solving the first big keeper is interesting

There are easy ways to solve the problem that are not obvious and hard ways that are obvious....

I used to be a fan of keeping the pipes, but after doing the canyon and not using them I now think they should be removed if possible. The canyon is more fun and a little more challenging without the pipes. Only real danger is the first big keeper, and if you can't figure it out you can always turn around, hike back out, and come back anther day after improving your skills.

[/quote]

[ajroadtrips]

FYI: Some of the pipes have been removed from Knotted Rope

Any chance Marie Coray would still be alive if the pipes had not been removed?

Doesn't matter.

Huh? I think it does matter as a point for discussion.

If you choose to remove bolts/pipes/whatever from a canyon that have been used in the past to aid in descent, you could cause someone to have an accident. This was an example of worst case.

Not if she broke her arm and fell in, climbing the pipes would be much harder then climbing a rope with loops tied into it.

My 2 cents are that a pipe there would help greatly in a rescue situation, and perhaps would have prevented this accident from occurring. The pipe was originally placed there because other groups had needed it.

Assuming the pipe was there, they may not have tried the slabby traverse that I suspect resulted in the fall, but shimmied over the pipe the way many used to do it. I would do the pipe shimmy over the slabby traverse if it were me.

Nice attempt to dodge the issue Ice. You supposition is correct, climbing the pipes would be hard with a broken arm, but you are assuming the broken arm would have occurred with the pipes in place, which I do not believe, or think is at least debatable.

[hank moon]

Huh? I think it does matter as a point for discussion.

For discussion fodder, I agree. But...

The reality is the pipe wasn't there. If it had been there, maybe she would have tried to use it to cross the pothole and fallen in a different manner. Maybe the pipe would have broken, shifted, etc. A hold might have broken. Rockfall. Snake startle. Hold broke. Foot slipped. Pipe too hot to hold. Baby eagle attack. The scenarios in which she might have died in a different manner are endless. That is why *in reality* it doesn't matter.

One can spend time debating what would have happened had the pipe been there, sure, and good thoughts may come out of such, but that's about it. This accident was probably caused by the classic cocktail of inexperience, inadequate preparation, lack of attention, human error, etc. In short, the same cause of prolly 99%+ of all accidents.

The pipe is just a pipe. I'm with Shane - get rid of the things. That way the expectations going in won't be (for the conscious person) pipe dependent. What if those pipes had been logs? Would the logs have made it into a guidebook as suggested descent aids? Hope not.

My 2 cents are that a pipe there would help greatly in a rescue situation, and perhaps would have prevented this accident from occurring. The pipe was originally placed there because other groups had needed it.

MayBMayBMayB. But why focus on the pipe? As long as we're in fantasyland, we could talk moki steps, rebar ladders, hammers, hooks, ropes, COMPETENCE, etc. If only the couple had been competent...if only some canyon stud like perhaps a couple of K's eagle scouts, etc. If only...if only...

[rockgremlin]

Huh? I think it does matter as a point for discussion.

If you choose to remove bolts/pipes/whatever from a canyon that have been used in the past to aid in descent, you could cause someone to have an accident. This was an example of worst case.

Not if she broke her arm and fell in, climbing the pipes would be much harder then climbing a rope with loops tied into it.

My 2 cents are that a pipe there would help greatly in a rescue situation, and perhaps would have prevented this accident from occurring. The pipe was originally placed there because other groups had needed it.

Assuming the pipe was there, they may not have tried the slabby traverse that I suspect resulted in the fall, but shimmied over the pipe the way many used to do it. I would do the pipe shimmy over the slabby traverse if it were me.

Nice attempt to dodge the issue Ice. You supposition is correct, climbing the pipes would be hard with a broken arm, but you are assuming the broken arm would have occurred with the pipes in place, which I do not believe, or think is at least debatable.

I can do nothing but agree with this post.

[rockgremlin]

The reality is the pipe wasn't there. If it had been there, maybe she would have tried to use it to cross the pothole and fallen in a different manner. Maybe the pipe would have broken, shifted, etc. A hold might have broken. Rockfall. Snake startle. Hold broke. Foot slipped. Pipe too hot to hold. Baby eagle attack. The scenarios in which she might have died in a different manner are endless. That is why *in reality* it doesn't matter.

One can spend time debating what would have happened had the pipe been there, sure, and good thoughts may come out of such, but that's about it. This accident was probably caused by the classic cocktail of inexperience, inadequate preparation, lack of attention, human error, etc. In short, the same cause of prolly 99%+ of all accidents.

The pipe is just a pipe. I'm with Shane - get rid of the things. That way the expectations going in won't be (for the conscious person) pipe dependent. What if those pipes had been logs? Would the logs have made it into a guidebook as suggested descent aids? Hope not.

I can do nothing but agree with this post.


I'm easily influenced today...

[Iceaxe]

If the pipes should stay or go has always been a point of contention.... All I was stating above was that I had done the canyon with and without pipes and prefer it without..... but a little more on the pipes...

The orginal pipes mentioned in Kelsey's guide became bent into a U shape from use and evenutally became useless to cross the potholes. You can't pole vault or tightrope using a pretzel.

I believe the orgianl pipes were removed because they became useless and dangerous as they provided sharp ends to fall onto sticking out of the pothole. So as far as Kelsey's guidebook goes it was already outdated because the stright pipes he mentioned were replaced by useless pretzels several years ago.... and the couple was not useing Kelsey's guide....

So you guys are arguing over something (useful straight pipes) that has not existed for several years. This is like arguing if a chokestone should be replaced that was washed out three years ago. According to hesse it should be replaced because it was mentioned in Kelsey's guidebook.
.

[ajroadtrips]

What if those pipes had been logs? Would the logs have made it into a guidebook as suggested descent aids? Hope not.

Nature removing things is different than a person removing something to meet their own standards and ego. Especially something that had a long standing history of being there.

MayBMayBMayB. But why focus on the pipe? As long as we're in fantasyland, we could talk moki steps, rebar ladders, hammers, hooks, ropes, COMPETENCE, etc. If only the couple had been competent...if only some canyon stud like perhaps a couple of K's eagle scouts, etc. If only...if only...

I focus on the pipes, because had been there traditionally, so were not fantasy. They were in Tom's description, as well as Kelsey's. If nature had removed them, fine. Nature did not.

Bent pipes, straight pipes, who cares? I would take a bent pole for assistance over nothing. The more you have to work with, the more likely you will be successful I think. I believe you are trying to argue you did the community a service by removing the pipes. From my perspective, you did not.

I posted, because the incident gave me pause to realize what I do in canyons anchor wise has an effect on others. I generally try to be a conscientious canyoneer and build (or re-build) solid anchors that are easy for others to find an use. This incident has re-affirmed that, and made me (personally) very unlikely to ever remove bolts or pipes. I don't want other peoples safety potentially compromised because of my judgment that something is or is not necessary.