Pine Creek

[Scott Card]

Once again I have to live vicariously through your escapades, Shane. I have been trying to convince those that were with me in Zion the past couple of years to do this sort of thing and I swear I have had no takers. I am dying to do a midnight run through Keyhole. Still on the to do list. I kind of have a sick desire to pop out of Keyhole to be greeted by some motorists who then report to a ranger of strange men in rubber suits with bright yellow shoes walking on the road at one in the morning. I then want to show the ranger my permit and smile a big toothy grin and bid him a good evening. See... that would be fun.

[Iceaxe]

Once again I have to live vicariously through your escapades

In that case I hope you enjoy my picture of canyoneering keyhole at night.

[Scott Card]

That is awesome. The lighting is just what I expected and it is everything I hoped for!!!

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Shimrock at night was fun. Finishing Behunin at night was not... we were just plain lucky. I would say as a general rule, anything that has rappels more than about 40 feet (headlamp range) is a very bad idea at night because you can't see what is going on with your rope.

[Iceaxe]

That is awesome. The lighting is just what I expected and it is everything I hoped for!!!

Yeah baby..... you don't get to see black like that in the big city

[Iceaxe]

I would say as a general rule, anything that has rappels more than about 40 feet (headlamp range) is a very bad idea at night because you can't see what is going on with your rope.

You just need to use a little more care and make sure you have the tools to ascend the rope handy if things are messed up out of headlamp range.

Consider it adding a degree of difficulty......

The actual slots are not to bad at night because you can usually see everything in your immediate path and route finding is minimal. The approach or egress is where lack of vision can really suck.

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[rock_ski_cowboy]

You just need to use a little more care and make sure you have the tools to ascend the rope handy if things are messed up out of headlamp range.

True true. Even with said tools, ascending a stuck rope isn't always a safe option, even in the daylight.

[Iceaxe]

Hmmm..... I wasn't considering climbing a stuck rope..... I was thinking more like you rappel down and find out your ropes are in a knot or your rope bag is stuck in the top of a tree and then needing to lock off or climb back up to straighten things out.

I usually will not climb a stuck rope, day or night.... unless I know "fer sur" it won't pull with me half way up.

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[mra243]

Hmmm..... I wasn't considering climbing a stuck rope..... I was thinking more like you rappel down and find out your ropes are in a knot or your rope bag is stuck in the top of a tree and then needing to lock off or climb back up to straighten things out.

I usually will not climb a stuck rope, day or night.... unless I know "fer sur" it won't pull with me half way up.

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I am a newbie when it comes to canyoneering and have only made 3 "canyoneering" trips so far. My first was the Medival Chamber in Moab which I'm not sure if it's classified as real "canyoneering".

I'm sure this could be a seperate topic of discussion by itself, but I've wondered what I would do if my rope got stuck while pulling it down. How do you know "fer sur" the rope won't pull if you make the decision to ascend?

[Iceaxe]

If you don't know its not a "fer sur".

A sure thing means the pull cord is still attached or a biner block is in place so that I know without doubt that its not going to come free when I start jugging the rope. If I'm not sure I'm not going to trust my life to jugging a stuck rope.

[mra243]

If you don't know its not a "fer sur".

A sure thing means the pull cord is still attached or a biner block is in place so that I know without doubt that its not going to come free when I start jugging the rope. If I'm not sure I'm not going to trust my life to jugging a stuck rope.

Yep, that's my feelings as well. Now, if that's your only rope you're carrying and there are still more rappels to go, what do you do if your rope gets stuck?

[rock_ski_cowboy]

I am a newbie when it comes to canyoneering and have only made 3 "canyoneering" trips so far. My first was the Medival Chamber in Moab which I'm not sure if it's classified as real "canyoneering".

I'm sure this could be a seperate topic of discussion by itself, but I've wondered what I would do if my rope got stuck while pulling it down. How do you know "fer sur" the rope won't pull if you make the decision to ascend?

The best thing you can do for a stuck rope is prevention. I'll get to what to do if it actually gets stuck towards the end. Now for the prevention:

1)Before the last person comes down, take care that the pull strand (whether its a pull cord, another rope, or just one half of the rope you've doubled to rappel on) is on the underside of the ring (between it and the rock). This way, as you pull, you're not pinning the other strand against the rock, and in some cases you'll actually be pulling the anchor away from the rock, making it easier. The other way around, as you pull, you may be pinning the rope you're trying to pull. This is a subtle thing that a lot of people don't think about.

2) If theres any doubt, do a test pull before the last person comes down. Adjust things until it pulls easily, and try to keep things from rearranging when you rap. My groups tend to do this on all but the most straightforward of rappels.

3) Where possible, extend the anchor past the lip, if it is not already there. For everyone but the last person down, you can alleviate the awkward start this sometimes creates by clipping the anchor back, or providing a body anchor away from the drop until the last person goes.

4) If you have two ropes tied, or are using a biner block, etc. and you're worried about the knot/biner getting stuck in cracks or something near the top, its possible to have someone anchor the pull strand from below, with the knot/biner well past the lip. We did this on the last rappel in heaps so we wouldn't have to worry about our knot getting caught in the cracks before the rappel goes overhung.

5) Do whatever it takes to keep pull strand and rappel strands separate and untwisted, before you get to the bottom. This usually means tossing the pull strand to someone below and having them hold it well out of the way. Another option is to rappel with a biner clipped around the pull strand as you go down, thus keeping them separate. If you're rappelling double stranded, keeping them untwisted is still doable, but you need to pay attention. Usually, I prefer to never throw the pull cord down until before the last person or two.

If it sticks anyhow:

1) If you screwed up and let it twist, untwist! ( Much more difficult at night, and on long or convoluted rappels.)
2) Step away from the drop as far as possible. The more direct line between you and the anchor, the better. Try as many different angles as possible.
3) Most ropes carry a wave remarkably well. Give that thing some hard whips. This will usually fix a stuck rope caused by not doing preventative step 1.
4) Ascend if possible

When to ascend or not:

If both ends are still on the ground, you can anchor one to a solid object and ascend the other without much worry.
If you've pulled it halfway and its stuck, and you only have one end on the ground, there's no way in heck I'd go up it unless I could be spotted from below up to where i could get both strands. One good yank that unsticks it as you're ascending and splat. I'd cut a rope before going up on a stuck rope where I didn't have both ends.

If you know the length of drops below you, a lot of times the only option is to cut your rope so you can use what you have left.

There are a TON of stuck rope TR's out there; I know I've posted a few over the last few years. Its interesting the different things people do to get out of those situations, a few have resulted in rescue (usually unnecessarily had they been more prepared or careful)-- but most people are able to either get it unstuck somehow, ascend, or cut their rope and continue.

Heres a good, recent uutah TR by Kyrell, including a stuck rope scenario, with some more discussion: http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2007

[mra243]

Thank you for a great reply. All of your points about the rope pull are well taken, and I practice all but #1. I have never really thought about that one, but it makes perfect sense. I'll definitely be practicing that in the future.

Again, thank you!

[Iceaxe]

Good stuff....

One other item.... watch your rope and pull chord when retrieving. Nothing sucks worse then pulling a knot in the end of your pull chord up and getting it stuck in the rap ring.

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