Animosity

[Reedus]

They are threatening to moderate over on the Yahoo group about the poaching discussion, so I thought I would bring it up over here. I haven't been on these forums long enough to know what has gone down, but curiosity is killing me to know why the hate and animosity between people that enjoy the same sport. Anyone "in the know" care to elaborate on how things soured? Probably none of my business, but if "anyone" wants to hit me sideband and fill me in as to why there is a dividing line between canyoneers.

Reedus

rseamons at msn dot com

[price1869]

jason price

[price1869]

sorry

[Iceaxe]

Let's see..... it all started when Neil wanted to moderate discussion and beta on poaching canyons. I pointed out that would be a great idea, except for the fact that the guy in charge of moderating such things was out poaching canyons.

Matt is actually mad at me because I posted a route description to Pandora's Box, which he considers the private domain of his clique. Wade is just pointing out that Matt the poacher is a hypocrite. Hank is just trying to keep the peace. Neil just can't resist stepping in dog shit (a good debate). Rich is stating the official ACA party line (consider it and advertisement).

Benny got hit with some friendly fire that was not intentionally aimed at him, so he tossed a bunch of crap at the fan which sprayed everywhere......

.....and I keep stirring the pot for my personal amusement........

Does that pretty much answer your questions?

[rockgremlin]

First of all....what's poaching???

Is it just stealing someone else's beta and claiming it as your own?

[Iceaxe]

First of all....what's poaching???

Poaching is doing a canyon without a permit. If you descend Pine Creek without a permit you have "poached" the canyon.

The term comes from hunting....As in you shot a deer without a licence, so you poached the deer.

Is it just stealing someone else's beta and claiming it as your own?

Nope, that was just a personal attack by Matt because I posted Pandora's. He was attempting to hijack the topic and turn opinion against those who share beta.

[stefan]

Shane you said there is nothing personal behind this. You gave benny a jab earlier this year, which i can see may be part of the conclusion he drew.

I didn't perceive your comments this way, but the jabs you make don't exactly help, either.

I see that you are saying that there is a double standard when in fact there shouldn't be. What actually sets the double standard is a little confusing to me. At the moment it seems that it could be simply whether it's the canyons done from the lake versus the canyons accessed by road in which case you DO interfere with the lives of the navajo directly. But this isn't clear to me. It's definitely EASIER to get away with canyons done from the lake, since the navajo aren't patroling.

Just to clarify: Poaching [on navajo land] can mean different things depending on whether the canyon is open or not. Poaching when the canyon is open means NOT requesting the permission from the navajo and NOT paying them the money they request for your access (which is easy enough to do by mail, $5 a day per person). Both are disrespectful. Another form of poaching is doing canyons which for the most part (barring special circumstances) are CLOSED to the general public and no permit is available, clearly you are not only NOT requesting a permit and not paying for it, you're completely disregarding their decision to close the canyon.


But your point is POACHING IS POACHING, either moderate none of it or all of it altogether, don't pick and choose.

Your jabs clearly are used to support your point more, but jabs get people all riled up, which i KNOW you like to do.

I suppose the question is whether one wants the forum to really start discussing *any* such practices openly, because it will CLEARLY be suggesting or encouraging others to engage. Then, the forum incurs the responsibility for such ramifications (no pun intended).

So my question for you is Moderate all together or not at all? I am not sure what your stance actually is.

[Iceaxe]

Ram told me the canyon forum would NOT be moderated provided the subject was on topic. To me, that is pretty clear. I orginally left the group when posts that did not agree with the ACA's view were being deleted and when posts were being written by moderators and posted under my name.

Uutah advertises the forum will be lightly moderated. I think that is pretty clear.

You are either a moderated forum or not, and I don't really care which. My problem is when a double standard is applied. I enjoy a moderated forum, provided it is even handed. I enjoy an unmoderated forum, if it is truely unmoderated.

I consider poaching to be an issue equal to access, bolts, permits and I think it should be discussed openly. I think beta on closed canyons is fair game in an open forum.

I already told Benny I was sorry. I didn't mean to nail him with my spray.

Now that should be clear as mud

[Reedus]

Not to hi-jack this thread or anything, but another question to pose: Why are some canyoneers against posting beta on canyons that are relatively unknown? I understand the concern about people going in and bolting the canyon, but does that really bother people and why if it does? I mean, leaving a piece of webbing around a deadman seems in the same league as leaving a piece of webbing around a hanger on the wall. As for the bolts, do they really offend people and why? As long as they are properly placed, I have no problems with them. I am definitely not good enough with a rockpecker to drill a hole as fast as I could build a natural anchor, but I do believe some people are more comfortable rappelling with a bolt in the wall then they are with a rock cairn anchor system. Any ways ..... Why is the canyoneering community so against placing bolts in canyons? I posed more questions than I first intended, but fire away at your theories.

Reedus

[price1869]

I don't like bolts for 2 reasons:

1. If I didn't place them, I don't know if they are safe. A poorly placed bolt, especially in sandstone can be bad news. Sandstone is soft anyway, and the bolts will have to be replaced every couple years leaving big holes in the rock. It's just a tree hugger thing I guess. I'm a dirty hippie tree hugger.

2. Oh wait, number two was that it leaves big holes in the rock and it's kind of ugly. Thats what makes me a dirty hippie tree hugger. Webbing can be removed easily, even if it is more of an eyesore.

Bolts just aren't that necessary. I've only seen a couple places in the canyons where I really thought that a bolt was better than webbing. ie: the wall rap in Behunin.

Price

[Reedus]

So is that the ulterior motive behind keeping canyons "secret" is to prevent bolting?

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Problem with bolting is, in the wrong hands, it creates really bad anchors. Then someone else sees the bolt sucks and puts another one in. Thus, the bolt garden. Also leaves permanant (as far as our lifetime goes) scars in the rock that are unnecessary. Webbing will wash out with a few good floods. BLAH BLAH Life span of bolts in sand stone isn't that long before they start to work their way loose. There are plenty of bolted canyons to do anywhere you go, why do they all have to be bolted? Natural anchors are faster to construct and sometimes easier to examine whether they're any good or not. Also present a good problem solving activity for those that enjoy such things. Newbies are more likely to rappel on a bad bolt without checking it and die than a bad natural anchor (this is debatable). The bottom line is sometimes (usually) they just aren't necessary. If you don't like natural anchors, I would say do all the bolted canyons and then start finding new ones and see if you really need to bolt them. On my last trip a couple of the worst anchors I saw were bolts in Clear Creek that were literally loose enough to wiggle around in thier holes. UGLY. My opinion is that if someone is really scared of natural anchors, it may be that some education and experience with them could open their eyes. Keep an eye out for ACA free natural anchors workshops. On the other hand, I secretly like it when I hit a big drop with nothing by way of anchor options and there are a couple of bomber bolts just waiting to be rapped off. Outside of Zion (where its almost always the case) this is sometimes the case, but not always.

I think most canyons that are kept secret are kept secret merely because there is no obligation to NOT keep them secret. Its not like its a canyoneer's moral obligation to let the world know about a canyon just because he knows about it like some people act and get all pissed about. Call this selfishness. Oh well. Its also cool (call it selfish too) to have you're own little place where you can pretty much assume you were the last people through. If I have found something really great, I share it with my friends and could care less about everyone else. I think a lot of people feel similarly. Keeping things bolt free is another motive to a small degree but its largely ineffective. A lot of known canyons are staying bolt free due to good education on natural anchors. Although there are a lot of canyons that aren't on a website or in a book, very few of them are deliberately being kept secret although there are definitely a few choice ones that are. What you don't know can't hurt you. or somethig like that.

[stefan]

I mean, leaving a piece of webbing around a deadman seems in the same league as leaving a piece of webbing around a hanger on the wall.

Reedus

Okay i started answering this question, for fun, but then thought that it was getting off topic of this discussion and it's furthermore been discussed countless times.

Simply put, the canyon is changed, cosmetically and routinely. Clearly deadmen aren't nearly as permanent as bolts are. But bolts dramatically change the style, difficulty, and challenge of a canyon. Far less thinking, creativity, and problem solving are involved, when a bolt has been placed. And many folks want to maintain the canyons in this more challenging, unadulterated state. [though, in some situations natural anchors can be quite difficult (impossible?) to conceive of, especially without sufficient materials]

It's great that there are many bolted canyons for anyone to enjoy, but i think the logical argument is

why place a bolt if you can improve your skills to match the difficulties of of the obstacles that present themselves. that is, bring yourself up to the level of the canyon, don't bring the canyon down to your level.

you could see this as a way of giving the canyon the respect it deserves.


people kept canyons secret in order to prevent bolting, but apparently it didn't work so well. so many have resorted to education and awareness to INSTEAD bring the skills of the masses to the level of the canyons

other reasons for keeping canyons secret sometimes could be personal or selfish, for protection of the canyon from the impact of the masses,

some believe by sharing the knowledge of canyons you can actually inspire MORE people to preserve them.

[Iceaxe]

At one time it was thought that keeping canyons secret would prevent bolting. It proved to have to opposite effect as canyoneers went loaded for bear when descending routes with little beta. Anyone still quoting this mantra is behind the curve and out of the loop. Knowing this is an easy way to separate the posers from the players.

The real reason behind "keep it secret" now days is what I would call "selfish", And I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way.

When someone discovers an unknown canyon they naturally consider it their baby and have a habit of watching over it. It's also a bunch of fun taking others to a place only you know of and has only been visited by a handful of others.

Its easy to just keep your mouth shut and not have to worry about your baby. I have found that it takes a very strong person who will share secret finds. Its scary to turn your baby lose for others to enjoy. Something like sending your daughter off to collage :-)

Now the funny part.... The animosity in posting beta ALWAYS comes from the posers..... these are guys that did NOT discover the canyon or put in the route, but found out about it through "putting in time" in the canyon community. These guys don't have the skill or talent to put in a new route and know this is their one shot at being special for what they know..... in other words, posing as a big shot. I call this the "Close the gate after me syndrome". These guys want to be in the know, but the spread of info is supposed to end with them. Some of my partners refer to this as "The Club" mentality or "Club Canyoneers". My feelings on this is if you were shown the canyon you are just along for the ride and have no right to whine when it is shown to others.

Stefen answered the bolting part pretty good.

[stefan]

Now the funny part.... The animosity in posting beta ALWAYS comes from the posers..... these are guys that did NOT discover the canyon or put in the route, but found out about it through "putting in time" in the canyon community. These guys don't have the skill or talent to put in a new route and know this is their one shot at being special for what they know..... in other words, posing as a big shot. I call this the "Close the gate after me syndrome". These guys want to be in the know, but the spread of info is supposed to end with them. Some of my partners refer to this as "The Club" mentality or "Club Canyoneers". My feelings on this is if you were shown the canyon you are just along for the ride and have no right to whine when it is shown to others.

Gotta love the irony!!

[price1869]

Can someone name a canyon "Animosity" for us?? That's you shane, next time you find one that needs a good name.

Secret keepers are rarely worried about bolters. Canyoneers aren't nearly as bad as cavers or surfers with their elitist selfishness. Sometimes you just don't want your little secrets overrun. No biggie.

Price

[Iceaxe]

If you want to really piss guys off rename their secret route "Animosity", even though it is commonly known by anther name in their clique.

This one-up manship is really common in some climbing circles.

Personally I always try and contact the guys who first put in the route whenever possible. I warn them that I am considering adding the route to my website and allow them to voice their concerns and considerations. If the concerns are legitimate I respect them.

Nearly all of the pioneers of routes are helpful and offer valuable advice and additional information.

[ajroadtrips]

It's not always about bolts. For me, it is about trying to protect wilderness.

When a canyon is sprayed to a large audience via a guidebook, or more importantly a website, it becomes the canyon de jour and gets trampled. Rope grooves, webbing nests, social trails, etc... show up. Even approach roads and pullout often become trampled.

For example, I've done many of the circle of few canyons before they were circle of few. I've also gone back weeks, months, and years later and done those canyons after they had been broadcast. A wild, and remote experience, was generally turned into a romp down a wide and braided social trail to a canyon that was very much impacted by traffic. It's difficult to explain the difference until you experience it.

Most of the canyons I have done without beta I would be happy to share with friends, because then the traffic will grow at a slow rate and hopefully be spread with some caution about being low impact. My belief is that many of the remote canyons are fragile environments where impacts should be minimized. Selfish? Maybe, but I like to think it's out of concern for the canyon.

The authors that try and glean beta by hook or crook without putting in effort, and publish at any cost seem to be feeding their egos and delusions of grandeur. A public presence by having the

[Iceaxe]

but their actions diminish their overall appearance in the eyes of peers.

I guess I'm not sure who you would consider "peers"??? But I'll take a wild guess and suggest we are not seeking approval from the same groups.

Here is a small portion of a letter I recently received from a gentleman I consider my peer. This is the same gentleman who put in all of the Escalante and Zion biggies..... Including Heaps, Imlay and Kolob.

When I got home from Easter I discovered on the Internet just how popular and commercial "Canyoneering" has become since I left the endeavor and how it is no longer necessary to guard what has become commonplace. Ethics are being developed along with techniques to lessen impact, restrictions, quotas, and warnings to the uninitiated, clubs have been formed to share routes and profess to be more caring for the environment. In short, the new generation is doing a great job and my forebodings were unfounded. I was wrong to think that everything would be trampled.

Perhaps it is a matter of exactly who's praise you seek?

It's not always about bolts. For me, it is about trying to protect wilderness.

Anther gentlemen I consider my peer, strongly believes the only way to save the canyon country is to introduce it to enough people that they will demand that it be saved in a voice loud enough to be heard.

I've done many of the circle of few canyons before they were circle of few. I've also gone back weeks, months, and years later and done those canyons after they had been broadcast. A wild, and remote experience, was generally turned into a romp down a wide and braided social trail to a canyon that was very much impacted by traffic. It's difficult to explain the difference until you experience it.

Just anther wild guess..... but I'm thinking I have done more CoF routes before they were broadcast then you have..... and I would have to strongly disagree. Yeah there is some impact, but at what cost? What follows is just one of many examples I could quote... When we introduced the Irish Canyons (Leprechaun and friends) they were unknown. Since that day hundreds of canyoneers have done thousands of descents and spent millions of enjoyable hours exploring these canyons. After seeing the thrill these canyons have brought to so many I would consider it extremely selfish and self centered if we had of kept them locked up and hidden. So I am to understand you disagree with this decision of ours to "share the wealth"? Or are you one of those who thinks it

[ajroadtrips]

We'll never agree on sharing beta for remote areas, so I will skip debating that furtner.

It's not about approval from peers, but rather keeping wilderness wild that appeals to me.

Are you saying someone stole something from you or cheated you out of it? Please explain, I never heard of a canyon being stolen before. Maybe they stole glory you felt belonged to you? Please explain what was stolen by hook or crook?

Some people, in an attempt to gain beta, have manipulated and attempted to "play" people to get information. Or posted text and information from people without their permission. (ie - a snippet of a route description I sent to you ended up on your site without my persmission. You had not done the section of canyon in question, and I would not have given you the information had I known it would be posted.) This, to me, is very poor form and is not a reasonable way to get beta. It seems to be driven by ego, instead of a love of the sport, passion for the desert, etc...

I now I have a question for you.... have you provided anything of value to the canyoneering community as a whole? Or have you only been a taker?

Adding value can probably be defined in many ways. If taking beginners out and teaching them about the desert and canyoneering, leading trips, practicing low impact techniques, and anchor maintenace in trade canyons are considered giving, then yes I am a giver.

Anyway, enough philosophical discussion. Time to head to the desert and actually get some canyons done.... Hoping it's good weather.

Desert Hiker