What makes you mad about Mountain Bikers?

[Scott P]

It seems dog owners and dogs are being hated equally. If someone hates dogs, do they hate just the out of control, untrained, unleashed ones - or just four legged furry friends all together? Because you know a good dog is as good as its owner who trained him/her.

What would make you all satisfied enough? (besides not seeing dogs at all) Obviously I want to continue enjoying the outdoors with "my little girl", but I don't want to be getting glared or swore at either.

As long as a dog owner keeps the dog on a leash (or under control) AND cleans up the dog crap, then I don't mind them. Unfortunately, these seem in the minority, but kudos if you do.

Even the most well behaved and trained dog can't clean up their own crap, so this is on the owner. Also, a dog doesn't have to be "out of control" in the eyes of the owner to be out of control. A "friendly welll behaved" dog whom wants to play, can easily scare or knock down a child, or be annoying to adults.

As I said, if your dog is leashed, or completely under control, and the messes are cleaned up, I have no problem with them at all.

Even the most well behaved dogs and owners are inappropriate in some areas. Studies in CO have shown that even the mere scent of a predator can change habits of big horn sheep and even cause them to abandone their trails. This is one reason I consider Steve Allen to be one of the most irresponsible guidebook author in respects to wildlife (though his books have many good points as well). He actually admits and encourages taking a "100 pound German Shepard" along a bighorn sheep trail!

[Shan]

What about this scenario - I stop, pull over/move off the trail, leash my dog, wait for everyone to pass, then go on my way (meanwhile picking up after her)? Is that not kosher enough? As long as no one is in sight, she can't be loose then walking by my side? It's not a forest service rule here to have dogs leashed at all times, only at developed areas. So I'm not breaking the law, yet being courteous to other recreators.

[Scott P]

What about this scenario - I stop, pull over/move off the trail, leash my dog, wait for everyone to pass, then go on my way (meanwhile picking up after her)? Is that not kosher enough? As long as no one is in sight, she can't be loose then walking by my side? It's not a forest service rule here to have dogs leashed at all times, only at developed areas. So I'm not breaking the law, yet being courteous to other recreators.

That sounds much better than most dog owners, and I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it. PS, leash laws are indeed in affect in most Forest Service Wilderness areas, but not outside teh wilderness. Some wilderness areas might not have this rule, however.

[Shan]

What about this scenario - I stop, pull over/move off the trail, leash my dog, wait for everyone to pass, then go on my way (meanwhile picking up after her)? Is that not kosher enough? As long as no one is in sight, she can't be loose then walking by my side? It's not a forest service rule here to have dogs leashed at all times, only at developed areas. So I'm not breaking the law, yet being courteous to other recreators.

That sounds much better than most dog owners, and I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it. PS, leash laws are indeed in affect in most Forest Service Wilderness areas, but not outside teh wilderness. Some wilderness areas might not have this rule, however.

I don't have a problem with that scenario either. I just called the ranger district in my town and asked on the leash laws. She said only in developed areas (trailheads/campgrounds/etc) do you have to leash your dog, and use common sense obviously - which is what I already heard before and feel what I do currently. Other districts may have other rules (even within the same forest), like you said.

[Scott P]

Just to show you that I don't hate dogs, here are a few pictures from last years trip up Hahns Peak. We took two dogs. Having a leash was pointless since there were absolutely no people around anyway.

I'm not sure why, but everyone else but one other person bailed before the trip. Many were committed to go, but the worst blizzard of the year hit on the planned date of January 8, 2005. What a bunch of wussies (the drop outs). Anyway, the two dogs helped break trail and we climbed the mountain anyway.

[live2ride]

Wow, those pics are great, was this an overnight thing or just a one day excursion? Great Pics DOG HATER!!!! J/K!!

[Scott P]

One long day.

[packfish]

It's good to see someone who enjoys doing something ask others what bothers them about it. If everyone had this attitude we wouldn't have as many confrontations as we do. I don't mind seeing bikers , except when they pass me, it's means they are going to get to my fishing hole b4 I do .(0: I hike with my dog, she is well trained and doesn't really give someone else a second glance, I really don't think she knows she is a dog. Even though she is extremely well trained ( mostly by herself) I still pull out the leash when someone comes down the trail, mostly for my peace of mind and I do bury her crap .

[live2ride]

Looks like people have major issues with dog owners not cleaning the poop up, so everyone must feel the same in regards to horses? Nothing worse than riding/walking on a trail and looking around not particulary eyeballing the trail trail when suddenly you get horse crap all over? I like horses but there is nothing more that ticks me off than a trail littered with horse poop. Also, it seems that some horse owners (I am not saying everyone, and I know this applies to Bikers/hikers as well) seems to use the trails when they are still muddy and wet which I believe causes more trail damage than biking/hiking. What are your thoughts on this?

[Shan]

Good point! Where are all the ranters and ravers about horse crap? At least my dog goes off trail (she likes privacy) and I have to go follow her.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Looks like people have major issues with dog owners not cleaning the poop up, so everyone must feel the same in regards to horses? Nothing worse than riding/walking on a trail and looking around not particulary eyeballing the trail trail when suddenly you get horse crap all over? I like horses but there is nothing more that ticks me off than a trail littered with horse poop. Also, it seems that some horse owners (I am not saying everyone, and I know this applies to Bikers/hikers as well) seems to use the trails when they are still muddy and wet which I believe causes more trail damage than biking/hiking. What are your thoughts on this?

Hiker. 4x4 owner. Horse owner. Wilderness advocate. Yeah, I know I'm wack. We rarely ride the horses in areas that aren't already all "cowed up" (which i've recently come to learn means f***ed up in SUWA terms) by our own cows, but we do take them to the Uintahs about once every two years to get far enough in that we don't see hardly any hikers or backpackers and pack enough gear that life is still quite comfortable, which i enjoy. Kind of a family tradition, great grandfather ran 10,000 sheep in the Uintahs back in the day.

First of all, I realize a lot of hikers and bikers hate horses. Sorry. Can't do much for you, try and quell your rage, because no one will hear your rant (especially on the internet!) and no matter how hard you think you are, ranchers and farmers are harder. I realize that crap in any form is unpleasant, although horse crap is one of the least unpleasant forms of crap in the world as it is visibly still just mulched grass, fairly solid, dries to dust quickly, and rarely smells. Unless strictly mandated to do so, horse users will likely not stop and scoop their horses crap up because it is a pain in the arse to get off your horse, and stopping a string of horses and pack horses in the middle of the trail every time one of them decides to lift their tail creates safety hazards if any of the horses are nervous or skittish. Complain away, but its a moot point. Once again, I feel for y'all, and can offer you nothing more than a "quit being a wimp" and a "sorry, once again, I know that horses make the world a worse place for you" (oh but they are the most beautiful and useful animals in all God's creation!).

While I must say that as a hiker, bikers don't bug me; as a horseman they really bug me if they don't stop and get off their bikes for horses. Its not a matter who has the right of way, its a matter of, if you don't stop for horses you could get someone seriously hurt or killed. I've seen some of the most well-broke horses go nuts when they see bikes. My mom was semi-seriously hurt (major bruising and torn muscles) because of such an incident. They obviously weren't trying to be malicious and it was the damn mule's fault for sure. It was actually on a dirt road and not even on a trail, so getting off the bikes would seem pointless. Out side of a select group of dude-ranch worn-down plug horses, most high-spirited horses will go nuts if a biker rides past them. To them, everything unfamiliar is an enemy monster, and bikes seem to be monstrous as hell for some reason.

I never see horses on popular hiking or biking trails. Sometimes i see hikers and bikers on popular horse trails

[live2ride]

While I must say that as a hiker, bikers don't bug me; as a horseman they really bug me if they don't stop and get off their bikes for horses. Its not a matter who has the right of way, its a matter of, if you don't stop for horses you could get someone seriously hurt or killed. I've seen some of the most well-broke horses go nuts when they see bikes. My mom was semi-seriously hurt (major bruising and torn muscles) because of such an incident. They obviously weren't trying to be malicious and it was the damn mule's fault for sure. It was actually on a dirt road and not even on a trail, so getting off the bikes would seem pointless. Out side of a select group of dude-ranch worn-down plug horses, most high-spirited horses will go nuts if a biker rides past them. To them, everything unfamiliar is an enemy monster, and bikes seem to be monstrous as hell for some reason.

I hear ya, I agree with you that bikers need to give the right away, I have ridden Antelope Island a few times this year and every time I am out there it seems that the horsemen? horse riders are very good and when I attempt to stop they have pulled off the trail and wave me through, I am sure I would have recieved a different response if I made no effort to stop and let them pass, it made me change my mind about horses this year, (and I also occasionaly ride horses) Given that, as long as everyone follows the "outdoor rules" everything should go well and everyone should get along.

[devNull]

Well, it looks like I missed most of the fun. I guess I will add my two cents now that most of it has been hashed out. I do a bit of trail running and hiking with my child in the foothills which is where most of my experiences w/ mountain bikers and dogs have occurred. I don't think that I have ever been terribly upset with a mountain biker. Some aren't as courteous as others, but generally they don't cause me many problems.

Dogs are the polar opposite. I rarely find a dog owner that doesn't make me mad. The number of poop baggies along the trail is amazing. Is the side of the trail a garbage can? I am sorry, but I think that if you have a dog you should pack its poop along with you. You will sometimes forget a bag you left and it is also a gigantic eyesore. Nothing upsets me more than coming around the corner of a trail and seeing a dog and no owner...regardless of whether I am out running or hiking with my 3 year old (who is not surprisingly terrified of dogs). I have no idea whether the dog I see is friendly or not. I know, I know EVERY dog on the trail is ALWAYS friendly. That is why dogs NEVER bite people. I have just started kicking the ownerless dogs as I go by for good measure. Most of these trails are leash only trails and maybe 1 in 25 dogs is on a leash. Something needs to be done. I don't mind if the owner is close and reaches down to grab the collar of the dog. It at least makes me feel like the owner is aware of the potential problem and cares about others safety. That is perfectly acceptable. Just don't let the dog run free or get out of your reach on heavily populated trails.

Horse poop rarely stinks? Really? It must be their urine then. I don't hike many trails used by horses, but...there is one that I sometimes use in the Uintas that is multiuse with horses and it certainly does have a distinct stench. I was in Zion last weekend and as we went up toward the trail to the Emerald Pools there is a trail that the horses use close by. It stunk like horses. Horses certainly do add a stench to the trail. No ifs ands or buts about it. That said I don't really mind them too much. They are a convenient mode of transportation on the trails and somehow seem like they belong there.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Horse poop rarely stinks? Really? It must be their urine then. I don't hike many trails used by horses, but...there is one that I sometimes use in the Uintas that is multiuse with horses and it certainly does have a distinct stench. I was in Zion last weekend and as we went up toward the trail to the Emerald Pools there is a trail that the horses use close by. It stunk like horses. Horses certainly do add a stench to the trail. No ifs ands or buts about it. That said I don't really mind them too much.

OK I have to admit I'm a little biased, having grown up with the s***... I really don't smell it anymore. (on a related note, when ever we drive past cattle and get a wiff, my dad rolls down the window and says "MMM, smells like money"...) Any animal is going to stink and crap, seems to me that horses' stink and crap is a little less offensive than most... MHO, YMMV, YOIJAVAMI

They are a convenient mode of transportation on the trails and somehow seem like they belong there.

Maybe because a large portion of the popular trails out there were made by and for them?

[Udink]

MHO, YMMV, YOIJAVAMI

That last one is a new one to me--no matches when searching Google and AcronymFinder.com. What's it mean?

[live2ride]

MHO, YMMV, YOIJAVAMI

That last one is a new one to me--no matches when searching Google and AcronymFinder.com. What's it mean?

It must be horse talk, or Brokeback mountain talk??? j/k I couldn't resist.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

YOIJAVAMI

Your Opinion Is Just As Valid As Mine Is

[live2ride]

YOIJAVAMI

Your Opinion Is Just As Valid As Mine Is

Makes sense

[accadacca]

YOIJAVAMI

Your Opinion Is Just As Valid As Mine Is

Too sophisticated for me...