Trad. V. Sport

To all the climbers out there...

My two main canyoneering partners are very different guys.

One is cautious and calculating, he is an Urban Planner, so he gets off on planning things. He's excellent at navigation but not very agile/ dextrous. To him canyoneering is supposed to be an all day excursion, and he's not real comfortable with stemming/ super tight slots.

My other buddy is a high energy, rock climbing type who works in sales. He's all about doing the most physically challenging canyons and he loves stemming over sketchy silos. I get the feeling that long treks through the desert aren't his favorite.

This dichotomy reminded me of the climbing world. I have friends who only climb big wall trad stuff and I also have friends who only climb difficult sport routes.

It almost seems like Traditional Canyoneering vs. Sport Canyoneering. Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by SRG

It almost seems like Traditional Canyoneering vs. Sport Canyoneering. Any thoughts?

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Interesting topic :2thumbs:

I think about this all the time.... and yes, there are certainly two distinct groups.

I believe there is also a 3rd group of canyoneers.... and that is those that love the swirling mystery of a twisty slot and are not really interested in the technical or planning side of things. To them the tech stuff is just a method of reaching the beauty. Lots of photographer types in this 3rd group.

When I first began publishing public beta on slot canyons with Climb-Utah.com, I had a very distinguish and long-time canyoneer accuse my of gutting his rambling nature adventures and turning them into "sport routes". He wasn't real happy that I was taking some of his 3 and 4 day technical backpacking routes and splitting them up into 5 or 6 adventures that could each be done in less than a full day. I was told I was "Missing the point".


:cool2:

Cool topic!

I love stemming over sketchy silos and very demanding canyons. Not a fan of huge hikes to get there, but consider them well worth it and "the price of admission". But if I'm packing up, it better be an all day excursion or we should throw another canyon in there. I also love big huge "free air" raps, and mostly wet canyons. The water seems to add a nice dimension and increase the difficulty level, again which I love. And I consider most cool rock formations holy places. Like the cathedral in Pine creek for instance. Or a simple log wedged 30 feet above the floor of a canyon. I find these places so amazing it literally blows my mind comprehending how they came into place.

But I am not interested at all when a friend says "Hey I found this new canyon, we could be the first to explore it". I'm scared to death I will run out of rope and get stranded, take a wrong turn, get lost, etc. So I only stick to known routes that are well published and conditions that are favorable. I almost always will insist that at least one person has been on a route we pick. The only exception would be Behunin, none of us had ever done that before but we had great beta, and it's well known, so no biggie.

Having trouble understanding what category I fit into, perhaps a little of each, but mostly a sport climber/weekend warrior. I can see the merits of each one. :2thumbs:

Can I introduce a 4th category - for old farts like us? :fart:At our age & condition we'll never be doing the real technical stuff. :stud:Got started into canyonneering for the beauty & novelty of the canyons. We like to do lots of photography in them, but also enjoy the adventure, exploration, route finding and problem solving & the rappelling. We're not all that committed to any particular "style" of canyoneering either. For us, it's also a nice contrast to and break from all our peakbaggin'. We'll probably never set foot in Sandthrax unless it's to view it from the bottom end. Not comfortable with the high stemming stuff but can handle some exposure. Guess we're mostly a #3. :jump_nutt:

This is an interesting topic. I'd say I'd be more in the first category. I don't mind stemming, for the most part, but super tight slots are not my thing (I weigh 250 pounds). I'm not particularly afraid of other kinds of technical challenges, but I like canyoneering for the fun, the awesome factor, and the beauty, in that order. So, if a canyon's going to be so technical or so difficult that it's going to seem work like work than fun, I'm not as excited about it.

When I was younger I was more of a type 2, I wanted all the hard and challenging stuff in my portfolio...

These days I'm more of a type 3 as my biggest thrill now is sharing special places rarely seen by others with my kids.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

Cool topic!

mostly wet canyons.

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X2 :2thumbs:. If there isn't a wetsuit in my pack I feel like I'm forgetting something.

I like the challenge, I like the beauty, I like tight slots and big drops, I really like wet canyons but dry ones can be a blast too. I would say that I am not in the 3rd group so much. I've got to have some sort of rappel or at least difficult down climb for me to really enjoy it. I really love problem solving, figuring out the best way to set up anchors, set up retrievables, learn new tecniques etc... and I love those moments when I can just enjoy the isolation and soak in the beauty of a canyon.

I agree on the climber thing. Boulder Co has tons of fellow climbers and trad vs sport is big thing. But then there are many who only climb indoors. Won't go out on rock. Go figure! And lots who will NOT lead climb, only top rope. So I'm sure there is same split for canyons. Personally I like to also free solo stuff, 4th and low 5th class. My friends and I love it and think it def helps doing the slots when we can get over there. I am also at point in my life whether it is climbing or canyoneering where I like new challenges, harder more difficult stuff, but not really willing to push so much that I might injure self. Getting hurt and laid up once you hit 50's is not fun and harder to recover. So there is that fine line. But I am also very comfortable at just doing stuff that is well within my skill level but just plain old fun. One other thing I notice. My friends and I from Colo are used to hiking peaks and doing 5-15 mile hikes and when we come to do canyons expect and like that aspect. There seems to be a certain amount of canyoneers who hate, dislike, or try to avoid a long approache or hike out. I even read comments about the 1 1/2 - 2 hr hike up to Death Gully in Mystery is killer. I'm sure there are others who like hiking as much as we do, but usually only hear those complaining. Again, the same applies to many climbers here. If it is over a 30 min approach you can eliminate 3/4 of the crowd. Which is a good way to have a crag all to yourself!!

"But then there are many who only climb indoors. Won't go out on rock. Go figure!"-- I Can't! That has always seemed crazy to me!

"My friends and I from Colo are used to hiking peaks and doing 5-15 mile hikes"-- Haha, I took my buddy to do the Little Blue John/Blue John Main Fork exit, and he didn't bring a shirt and he set out barefoot with some Tevas in his pack. I tried my best to convince him otherwise, but I guess cause it's like <3 miles round trip he thought it would be fine... after doing the up-climb out of the Main Fork with no shirt and feet full of cactus spines he never made that mistake again.

I'd say you can't really put me in a specific category as a canyoneer. I enjoy the hell out of hard high stemming canyons for sure, it's probly my favorite kind of canyoneering at this point in time. However I started canyoneering because I was interested in seeing what it was all about. After doing mind bender as my first canyon I saw the allure of the elegant aesthetics that canyons provide, I also saw the allure of down climbing, and rappelling off anchors that consisted of rocks tied off, buried in sand. I'll never forget how empowering it was to ghost no kidding, or to do thrax for the first time. Not much experience with water except the black hole on january 1st... Which won't soon be forgotten either. I don't think anything yet to date has compared to x-fest for me, long approaches that start way in the middle of no where, some of the most demanding canyons I've ever done, yet also some of the prettiest. For me the ideal canyon is either; stunning to look at and photograph, technically challenging, physically challenging, mentally challenging or just plain uncharted.

As a climber I'd say TRAD all day long (just check the break down of my ticks on mountainproject.com over 80% trad climbs). but more importantly I wanna focus on walls. If I could lead 5.12 trad and A4 I'd be a happy man (done up to 5.10 trad and some C3+ though). I'm not too fond of bouldering (with the exception of cracks) or sport climbing for the most part but see them as means of training. I managed to follow a 5.12 sport route with 2 cruxes (got the first clean, short hang on the second), and have made it up some apparent V4-5 boulder problems.

I have a history of easy/moderate trad stuff - up to 5.8 sort of thing. Longer, fun stuff, say 6 or 7 pitches of 5.4 to 5.8 mixed in there. A little bit of sport, but so much of that stuff was way too hard for a fat, wimpy guy like me. Alpine climbing is good, but haven't done nearly enough of it - lack of partners. Long hikes/scrambles with 10, 12 or 14 hour days. When I got into desert hiking, a few years ago, it was fantastic, but I wanted to get into those spots I couldn't get to, so had to look into hiking with ropes. Then I started to discover the flowing stuff - wow!

In canyons, I'm mostly about seeing the beauty. I like a challenge, too, though. Some of my favourite canyoneering trips have involved long, challenging days - Choprock, Kolob, etc. Nowadays, up here, it's raps through pounding water that challenge me. Being middle-aged-plus, and not in the best of shape, I lag behind a fair bit, but I do like to push myself somewhat. And I do want to get into some more demanding canyons - a little more spice in the meatball is good. But when I'm 100, like Tom, and I can't manage the hard stuff anymore*, I'll still be happy to get into easy stuff just to see the beautiful surroundings. Cuz it's gorgeous, and I just want to soak it in...

* Not that Tom can't manage the hard stuff - but when I'm 100, I know I won't be able to!

Type 3, I like a long hike through the desert, and I like the technical challenge, I even like a cold swim (with limits), but I don't really enjoy high stemming or brutally narrow canyons, 'the swirling mystery of a twisty slot' is what I love. I might just change my user-title to 'Type 3'...

What about speed canyoneering (or "hypercanyoneering" as Jared Campbell calls it)? Maybe it's for ADHD canyoneers. I know there's a few of you out there like me that love seeing just how fast and eficiently you can do a slot canyon. Slot canyons to me are like parkour taken to a whole new level. I try to take as little gear as possible and do the canyon as fast as possible often linking together three to five canyons in a day. I must admit, however, that I'm not stopping to smell the roses much this way, so every once in a while I take it easy and just enjoy the scenerey.

Type #5. Hiking is awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS is doubly awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS and finishing the hike with everyone intact is triply awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS, everyone unscathed, and in time to have a social Murder Burger and Beer is quadruply awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS, everyone intact, a full belly, great memories, nice shower, at home with the one(s) you love is quintuply AWESOME! Definately type 5 for me.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Type #5. Hiking is awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS is doubly awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS and finishing the hike with everyone intact is triply awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS, everyone unscathed, and in time to have a social Murder Burger and Beer is quadruply awesome. Hiking with FRIENDS, everyone intact, a full belly, great memories, nice shower, at home with the one(s) you love is quintuply AWESOME! Definately type 5 for me.

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curious have you ever not make it to triply awesome? who did you leave & where? j/k :haha:

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

curious have you ever not make it to triply awesome? who did you leave & where? j/k :haha:

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Now that you mention it Shaun....Took off from east side to hike Mystery Canyon with 5 other friends, got near the bottom of "Death Gully", and ran into a fella with a broken ankle. Said farewell to the other 5 friends as they hiked off with ropes and cameras. I did get to go up and down "Death Gully" numerous times like a "Yo-Yo" getting the fella outa there though!?

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Originally Posted by forum8fox

Youthful exuberance... or perhaps I'm just :crazycobasa:

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Now that I'm old I have decided it's too bad that youth is wasted on the young. :cool2: