FYI suspension trauma is normally only a concern with a motionless (usually unconscious) person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
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FYI suspension trauma is normally only a concern with a motionless (usually unconscious) person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
WRONG!!Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
Averting suspension trauma is a major part of cave rescue, rope rescue and similar fields. Tests have shown that healthy, rested individuals sitting immobile in standard harnesses can lose consciousness in about 10-30 minutes. Individuals who are starting out unhealthy, due to exhaustion, injury, hypothermia, and so on, are at a greater risk. Because of this, if a person is found to be stranded in their harness, immediate action is required.
"Averting suspension trauma is a major part of cave rescue, rope rescue and similar fields. Tests have shown[citation needed] that healthy, rested individuals sitting immobile in standard harnesses can lose consciousness in about 10-30 minutes. Individuals who are starting out unhealthy, due to exhaustion, injury, hypothermia, and so on, are at a greater risk. Because of this, if a person is found to be stranded in their harness, immediate action is required." (Wikipedia)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Sorry, had to. I'll take experience over Wiki any day, I'd be interested in hearing it first hand.
I have heard it first hand (OldNo7 was there as well...) from Dr. Gordon Larsen, he is the medical director for Zion SAR. Give him a call he will be happy to tell you about it. He also works in the ER at Dixie Regional Medical Center. I should have clarified it in that post, that is why I felt good about putting that in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
immobile = motionless (sez me). testing is normally done w/conscious subjects who are asked to hang motionless for test purposes. If they did not remain motionless (i.e. moved about in the harness to relieve stress points), they would not be in danger of suspension trauma. I think that's the current understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Yes, I remember the conversation with Dr. Larsen. I also can vouch for his schooling(Dr. Larsen) He and I went to the same Jr. High in Bountiful.(enough vouching) I just happen to be a little older, he just happen's to be a LOT richer.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Funny thing about the good Dr. though--he doesn't wear a helmet, at least when we did a canyon.
Shane
I think we need some moderation in here. We have conversions,contingencies,
suspension trauma and I've lost track of the rest.
Whatever the good doctor knows, chances are it is found in the [pdf] article linked from this page:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_h...2/crr02451.htm
Some good winter reading!
I think doctors in America actually go to medical school, oh by the way he was doing some training with the Zion SAR and had a very close call with one of the "victims" that got him doing some research to verify what he witnessed...Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
:nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
I think we are lost in the wilderness. But hey it all ties back one way or the other to getting stuck on a rappel. :2thumbs:
Harness Suspension Trauma is a relatively new area of study and still poorly understood. It's unlikely that your Doctor learned anything about it during medical school unless he's a recent graduate. It's important to understand that the danger lies in hanging motionless in a harness. There was a big bruhaha a few years back in the rope access/fall protection industry due to a lack of understanding on this point. Some alarmist folks were saying that harnesses kill, don't ever fall in one, etc. etc. I am continuing to post in an effort to help educate on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Here is another good article on suspension trauma:
http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdf?v...0sessionmgr111
From what i have read, it appears the issue of suspension trauma is something that can definitely result from wearing a harness. However, I'm with Hank Moon on this one, the cause is motionless. It seems to me the scare of suspension trauma in a harness is rooted in the the scare of passing out. The article above claims that the normal flexing and movement of the legs relieves the threat of suspension trauma however if someone is stuck on rope a hundred feet up who knows how they will react? If they get so scared they freeze up, then yes blood would begin to pool in their legs and suspension trauma could set in. If they get so scared they pass out then they are really in danger.
You can trust me, I'm a first semester anatomy student.
If that were the case, I'd get "suspension trauma" every time I rock climbed...(!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Geez, look how long ol' Tony Kurtz hung in their on the Eiger. Maybe Longhi has the record for hangin' out, though, eh? Heck, he was even waving at passing planes...
Look at how long those poor, poor lads who solo big walls in remote places (Dave Turner, Mike Libecki) hang in their harnesses. Shoot, 20 to 30 DAYS.
Its pretty rare. And, I seem to recall from reading about it in Off Belay or some such years ago (related to a caving death), happens to folks suspended and unconscious.
Hank's got it. Wiki, well, its usually pretty reliable. Usually.
-Brian in SLC
The wiki article USED to say that, without citation. Citation to a personal conversation is not a WP:RS. The intro also said:Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
My, my, I must be especially faint-resistant, because I can stand for a long time, just like Secretary Rumsfeld!!! Yes, people put ludicrous things in the wiki, and people like me take them out. (hmmmmmmmmmm. uh... never mind).Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Tom :moses:
At the Bountiful Jr. High Medical School? :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
:moses:
And if you are wearing just a seat harness, and go unconscious, other very bad things happen to you (in most cases, I suspect) before the suspension trauma comes into effect. This is why the UIAA strongly recommended use of a chest harness for many, many years; which almost everyone ignored. Lots of dead bodies? well, no - because people don't often go unconscious hanging on the end of a rope without some other serious problem involved, often fatal. But if they do, you want to get them down right away!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Tom :moses:
vive le chop!Quote:
Originally Posted by madwordchopper
Surely you jest. Need I list other qualification? Based on the first responder card I carry with me I am set apart as one certified to asses an emergency, give o2 (crucial), and wait for advanced EMS. Tom Tom, I'm no rookie... :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Is that a new calling at the local LDS ward?Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
:lol8:
aw man, and I put so much thought into that one! i'm just not quick enough :haha: i can't wait for freeze fest!Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs