Deer Creek (lower and upper) questions & other Grand Canyon slots

I know you have to be a canyoneer to get through the bottom of lower Deer Creek Narrows and the water and waterfalls. But if someone is not a canyoneer is it possible to see the FULL length of the Narrows by either walking all along the rim and looking in, or along any ledges or benches part way up the walls?
And are there any points where you could get down into any sections of the bottom without rappeling and then get back up? I know it's closed to canyoneers at present anyway - I'm not sure if hikers are still allowed to see all or part of it if the answer to the above is yes. And if they're banned, it would be good to know should it re-open.

In Upper Deer Creek, I know the only way to see the Middle Fork West Fork is to be a pretty accomplished canyoneer, & Todd's Grand Canyoneering book really rates them - particularly Middle Fork - as among the best, but strangely I can find very few pictures & just 1 video of Middle Fork and next to nothing for West Fork. Has anyone seen any footage? I see MrAdam has put 2 photos on this site and EmmaDean & CanyonExplorer planned to go in May. (I'm wondering whether it's worth really getting into canyoneering to a level beyond beginner - Choprock's the other out bucket list one beyond my skills! Although gaining experience is pretty difficult and will be a slow process living in the UK where there are no canyons!)

Lastly, several Grand Canyon slots, which I think are all in the Redwall, have lovely polished smooth walls, often white, (maybe bleached by flash floods?), which sometimes even extends across the floor, and I've not seen this in any canyons I've hiked or rapelled in Zion, Moab, or Grand Staircase Escalante, although perhaps the Black Hole looked similar in places. It seems that Middle Fork Upper Deer Creek, Olo, 150-Mile, Panameta, Cove and perhaps Olo all have this. But the Grand Canyons ones are obviously very remote and also always involve intermediate/advanced canyoneering. Does anyone know of a more accessible and even hikeable canyon anywhere that looks liek this

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But if someone is not a canyoneer is it possible to see the FULL length of the Narrows by either walking all along the rim and looking in, or along any ledges or benches part way up the walls?

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Unfortunately the NPS has closed lower Deer Creek to all entry.

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Lastly, several Grand Canyon slots, which I think are all in the Redwall, have lovely polished smooth walls, often white, (maybe bleached by flash floods?), which sometimes even extends across the floor, and I've not seen this in any canyons I've hiked or rapelled in Zion, Moab, or Grand Staircase Escalante, although perhaps the Black Hole looked similar in places.

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The rock in those places is completely different from the Redwall. The Redwall is very hard and smooth limestone. The rock itself is gray to light gray, but it has been stained by the layers above it (the Supai). The sandstone in the canyons mentioned is nothing like the smooth limestone in the Grand Canyon.

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Does anyone know of a more accessible and even hikeable canyon anywhere that looks liek this

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Yes, but still pretty remote. There are canyons similar to this in Twin Creek Canyon/Surprise Canyon, along White Creek, and lower South Canyon. They are either non-technical or semi-technical, but still remote and you have to hike to them.

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I know you have to be a canyoneer to get through the bottom of lower Deer Creek Narrows and the water and waterfalls. But if someone is not a canyoneer is it possible to see the FULL length of the Narrows by either walking all along the rim and looking in, or along any ledges or benches part way up the walls?

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You can walk the entire rim on the river runner trail, but the slot is so deep and convoluted that you can't see the bottom except in only in a few places. Any entry into the narrows is closed. We intend to try to reverse the closure when the public comment comes up in the Backcountry Management Plan later this Summer. You should get involved and file comments to open lower Deer Creek if you ever want a chance to see it. Here's some motivation:

https://plus.google.com/photos/10315...993?banner=pwa

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particularly Middle Fork - as among the best, but strangely I can find very few pictures & just 1 video of Middle Fork and next to nothing for West Fork.

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Here are some middle fork shots from my last trip through. The Middle Arm is every bit as good as Todd says, but it is an advanced slot. There are many other wonderful slots to try while you work your way up to this one. Todd, Albert and I were seriously hypothermic after the first descent. It was one (of probably too many) wake up calls while exploring in Grand Canyon.

https://plus.google.com/photos/10315...473?banner=pwa

The West fork has likely never been done since Todd and I did the first descent years ago. It's quite good but short. The ending is a 300' rappel. We only had a 250' rope. It's hard to forget a day like that! I rummaged through my hard drives and sent a few West fork photos to the web here:

https://plus.google.com/photos/10315...60399049198017

I also found a video I shot of Todd throwing the rope and realizing that it didn't reach. I'm glad I cut the video when I did. This is a family site :eek2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqmQ...ature=youtu.be

Most Grand Canyon slots have polished marble floors. The Redwall limestone is stunning when it's been polished by eons of floods. You won't find limestone slots in any other place on the Colorado Plateau. But fortunately for you, there are some incredible class C limestone slots in the Alps. Many Grand Canyon slots are not technically difficult, but canyoneers can run into trouble in Grand Canyon because they don't have experience with the difficult approach routes, finding water in a very arid environment, and the constant exposure with loose footing. Sometimes packrafts are required after exiting a slot to float the Colorado for short distances where climbing out of Grand Canyon is possible. The scale of the place is mind blowing. People are often unprepared for the physical effort required. One of the most stunning slots is 150 Mile Canyon. It requires four short rappels (to 20') over a mile in the best section. Jug the ropes to get out. Relatively speaking, the pay to play is pretty good there. Shinumo Wash in Marble Canyon is also easy but excellent requiring a short 1 mile packraft to exit. South Canyon, as Scott mentioned, is also relatively easy. Tuckup has a few outstanding slots that are relatively accessible. I would suggest you start backpacking in Grand Canyon first. When you feel comfortable you can start venturing off the beaten path to see some of these places. Work your way up to it though, because no one is coming to get you (in time anyway) if things go awry.

Regards,

Rich

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You won't find limestone slots in any other place on the Colorado Plateau.

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If anyone is interested from a trivia standpoint, there are actually limestone slots up in the far north of the Colorado Plateau, especially around the Vermillion Creek area. They are fairly similar to the ones in the Redwall (i.e not tight), though they are much fewer in number and shorter. People hike through them to view various petroglyph panels. The rock is not as polished as it is in the slots in the Redwall though.

Here is the mouth of one of the limestone slots:

http://worldwest.media.clients.ellin...76c5214cc818ca

Sorry for the delay replying guys - I've ticked for email notifications but never seem to get any. Anyway, thanks for the helpful and interesting replies..
Sounds like even if the NPS do reopen Deer Creek it's not worth it if someone isn't planning to canyoneer if they would only catch the odd glimpse of the bottom, but well worth it for canyoneers.

Scott, I googleiimaged the non-Grand Canyon ones you mentioned but couldn't find anything, but will look on here & Canyon Collective when I get time. And did you mean the South Canyon in the Grand Canyon

Rich, thanks for the West Fork Deer Creek link - I need your permission though to view the pictures so I've sent a request.
Todd seemed incredibly calm when he threw that rope - the calm before the storm I guess.
Having read the Death in the Grand Canyon book I'm even more aware of the dangers than before and as a very naive desert first-timer many years ago learned an early dehydration/altitude sickness lesson hiking Telescope Peak in Death Valley. I suppose I don't worry about pay-to-play ratings when dreaming through books/photos/videos, I just want to know which places are the tops solely for scenic beauty rating, especially with trips from the UK going to be limited & expensive - & then I worry about how to get there afterwards! Still if i was as capable as you guys my kids would blame you, Todd and Mike Kelsey for rarely seeing their dad!..

(BTW when my original post mentioned Olo twice I meant Scotty's Hollow looks like it may have polished limestone - and it's partially hikeable)

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Scott, I googleiimaged the non-Grand Canyon ones you mentioned but couldn't find anything,

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There is nothing online on those canyons anyway. Other than the fantastic petroglyphs they aren't destination destination slots (at least if coming from overseas). The petroglyphs are some of the best around (indeed, probably some of the best in the world), but the slots only OK. I only mentioned then to point out that other limestone slots do exist, just in case anyone is interested.

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And did you mean the South Canyon in the Grand Canyon

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Yes. It's a pretty easy, but good one. Besides the slot, there are lots of other things to see on that hike.

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Scotty's Hollow looks like it may have polished limestone - and it's partially hikeable)

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With a partner or two, Scottys Hollow is pretty easy, at least by Grand Canyon standards. It's still an isolated area and is much harder than an official trail. If you're up to it, ask for some partners and go for it.

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I need your permission though to view the pictures so I've sent a request.

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Ever since G+ hijacked my Picasa account, I've been trying to figure out how to get the settings right. I think I've set it to public viewing now, so try again and report back.

Scotty's is five stars good - absolutely fantastic with the long polished limestone floors you seek (and a few chest deep wades too). Coming off the west rim to access Scotty's via the shortcut routes is very difficult (and exposed) and should be left to experienced Grand Canyon scramblers. However, one of the best backpacks anywhere (in the World ... no kidding!) is through the Kanab Creek drainage and access is easy at Hack Canyon and at Sowats Point via the Jumpup Nail trailhead. The road to access Sowats is the better one, especially if you're in a rental car. The walk down Sowats Canyon takes you to Mountain Sheep Spring, then into Jumpup Canyon where you'll find 3 miles of incredible narrows. When you hit Kanab Creek, turn down stream under towering cliffs toward Shower bath Spring and on to Scotty's Hollow. Kanab has flowing water from just above the slot we call Kirk's Chasm. You can climb up Scotty's in a series of waterfalls and bypasses all the way to the rim if you want, but the best part is in the Redwall limestone. It requires some partner assists and a short 15' rope is mighty helpful to haul packs and offer a handline in a few places.

Exit back down into Kanab Creek and walk down canyon another 5 watery miles (with big pools to swim if your hot) to Whispering Falls Canyon. Hike up to one of the best swimming pools in Grand Canyon. Dive in and swim to the cave at the back and listen to the gentle falls coming down from 180' above. That rappel into the pool will be for a future trip, but it is one of the finest slot canyon exits in Grand Canyon. Then walk another 3 miles down Kanab on some long Muav limestone sidewalks to the Colorado River. Jump in and freeze to death! It's refreshing on a hot Summer day, but otherwise the 48 deg water is heart attack inducing. Return the way you came. It will 6 of the finest days you'll ever spend and it's the easiest way to see Scotty's Hollow. You might notice many fine slot canyon exits into Kanab Creek as you hike by too. Almost all of them are excellent. You'll be back.

Regards,

Rich