Loved my first canyon. Here's my first question: Amsteel Blue for pull cord?

Did Splash Down Canyon (Near Mesa, AZ) today with my son. It ends with a 140' rap directly into the Salt River. Used about 60' of 5mm Blue Water cord for the pull, and though I eventually got the rope down, the pull cord elasticity was killing me.

I've been using Amsteel Blue for years for hammock suspension. It's has no sheath, but the stuff is shockingly strong, light, and static. It's slippy, but nothing the right knot wouldn't get around. I'm surprised I can't find even a discussion of its potential as a pull cord on this forum or anywhere else.

I was about to throw down for 200' to give it a shot, but, being new at all this, I think I'd better check with you experienced canyoneers. Any good reasons beyond tradition to stay with sheathed cord? To be precise, I am considering the 5/32 (4mm) size, which is rated for at least 3600lbs. I'm not talking about rappelling on it, just pull cord.

Thanks in advance!

You might try posting this in the canyoneering section for a quicker response.

My 2 cents..... You should select a pull cord large enough that you would feel comfortable rappelling on in an emergency, because one of these days if you do enough canyons you will need it.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

My 2 cents..... You should select a pull cord large enough that you would feel comfortable rappelling on in an emergency, because one of these days if you do enough canyons you will need it.

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by Triggerfish

Did Splash Down Canyon (Near Mesa, AZ) today with my son. It ends with a 140' rap directly into the Salt River. Used about 60' of 5mm Blue Water cord for the pull, and though I eventually got the rope down, the pull cord elasticity was killing me.

I've been using Amsteel Blue for years for hammock suspension. It's has no sheath, but the stuff is shockingly strong, light, and static. It's slippy, but nothing the right knot wouldn't get around. I'm surprised I can't find even a discussion of its potential as a pull cord on this forum or anywhere else.

I was about to throw down for 200' to give it a shot, but, being new at all this, I think I'd better check with you experienced canyoneers. Any good reasons beyond tradition to stay with sheathed cord? To be precise, I am considering the 5/32 (4mm) size, which is rated for at least 3600lbs. I'm not talking about rappelling on it, just pull cord.

Thanks in advance!

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Amsteel specific comments:

A few of us have been using the Amsteel as a pull cord for a bit, usually called a "Super Pull Cord". We mostly use it for long FiddleStick rappels, where the lack of weight of the pull cord is a significant boon. As a general pull cord, I have found the AmSteel is not a good pull cord:

A. it is unfriendly - almost always tangles, and is difficult to untangle. Even using a ropebag of some kind.
B. it is really expensive.
C. while it may be strong, its cut-resistance/abrasion-resistance is unknown and likely not so good. In canyoneering, often the pull is across and edge and the cord is subject to substantial abrasion and/or cutting action. The pull cord cutting 150' above you could result in unpleasant circumstances. (when we use it to pull a FiddleStick, it is not "pulled" across and edge, it just transmits the force up to the FiddleStick, pulls it out, then it falls (hopefully) to the ground).

I can see using it for a pull-through type pull cord ONLY when it does not contact the rock, which is a rare circumstance.

Pull Cord Specific comments:

Welcome to the sport/obsession. Using a pull cord is an advanced technique that should only be used when the benefit of carrying less weight is substantial. In the vast majority of circumstances, it is much safer to carry real ropes that can be utilized if the primary line gets frakked up (that's a technical term).

Being new to the sport, you are likely to learn a few things that most of us learned in our first couple seasons of canyoneering. Maybe its just me, but I learned over and over again how to get ropes stuck. One thing to NOT do when you get a rope stuck is to ascend up the rope to see what it is stuck on. I am not a drunk, but perhaps I am a fool, for God above looked kindly on me the few times I was foolish enough to ascend the stuck rope without the other side secured. I have learned to cope with the problem in some other way, because I value my life highly. Being 3 raps from the end of the canyon with just an Amsteel pull cord would tempt me to climb that stuck rope - and I don't want to be in that situation.

There are better pull cords: specifically the 6mm static polyester pull cord I make. You have seen how poorly stretchy pull cord works - well, this stuff is much more static. It is also big enough that on certain rappels in emergency situations it could be rapped on, though getting sufficient friction could be a challenge. It is strong and sturdy enough that it can be cut up and used for anchors, in an emergency.

But really, go buy another rope. If the weight is a problem, perhaps a smaller-diameter rope should be your norm... though that is a very complicated issue: here is some discussion on that: http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php#diam

Tom :moses:

Thanks all! Tom, I appreciate the detailed response, and you convinced me. Looks like I'll be getting a very long rope!

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Originally Posted by Triggerfish

Thanks all! Tom, I appreciate the detailed response, and you convinced me. Looks like I'll be getting a very long rope!

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"very long rope"

Just to be clear, not suggesting that for a 200 foot rappel you should carry a 400 foot rope. Two 200 foot ropes is a much better plan. Even better is one 200 footer and two 120 footers. Spread the weight around.

Tom

Aren't you suppose to carry over 2x (in some cases I've read 2.5x) the amount of rope as the longest rappel? In case of emergency I'd like to be able to rappel on all of the rope we carry so we use 8 or m rope as the pull side. We had a core shot with a rappel before and after seeing that I am a true believer in having a backup.

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Originally Posted by BKNorby

Aren't you suppose to carry over 2x (in some cases I've read 2.5x) the amount of rope as the longest rappel? In case of emergency I'd like to be able to rappel on all of the rope we carry so we use 8 or m rope as the pull side. We had a core shot with a rappel before and after seeing that I am a true believer in having a backup.

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Sometimes that isn't practical if you have a small group and one very large rappel. Especially in a very long canyon etc.

You could isolate the core shot with an alpine butterfly or similar knot, and get the rope down with some type of releasable.

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Originally Posted by BKNorby

Aren't you suppose to carry over 2x (in some cases I've read 2.5x) the amount of rope as the longest rappel? In case of emergency I'd like to be able to rappel on all of the rope we carry so we use 8mm rope as the pull side. We had a core shot with a rappel before and after seeing that I am a true believer in having a backup.

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Well, it depends. On you, your companions, your skill level and the details of the canyon. Really, you otta have 3X the longest rap in the canyon, but somehow bringing 900 feet of rope through Heaps just isn't that good of an idea.

It depends.

Tom