Attachment 68952
What are your thoughts about this diagram? What would you add to it? Take away from it? Any methods I am missing?
Printable View
Attachment 68952
What are your thoughts about this diagram? What would you add to it? Take away from it? Any methods I am missing?
This assumes each person in the group is trained to set up rappels (check or build anchor, rig rope and pull line, provide top belay, etc...) OR Belay from the bottom and do clean up afterward. This may not be a problem, but other discussions suggest that trading out the bottom belay man/woman is best.
If you notice each person in your group does the same thing every time. Some People may need/want the experience of doing both or neither :mrgreen:.
True, this does assume that most people in the group are trained with some basic canyoneering skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by pikan
In this diagram of 4 people it ends up with the same persons essentially doing the same things every other rappel. say the group is 5, 8, 12?That order would change. Not to mention, if the person that sets up the rappel wants to rap first and provide the bottom belay, that would totally be fine too. (harder for ME to show that in a diagram though)
Essentially, It is my general feel that the first two people at the rappel get the privilege of setting it up and cleaning it up. But when those persons arrive at the next rappel, it should be set up and being managed by next members of the group, thus allowing you to play through and hike on to the next obstacle.
EEK! someone would dare go canyoneering and not want to be helpful? GASP! You would hope they would at least be willing to provide a belay and help bag and carry ropes!Quote:
Originally Posted by pikan
I <3 logistics.
As you know, every rappel is very different, often requiring different people to use thier talents. Good anchor builder? Go first. Flyweight SandTrap expert? Go last. Newbie that doesn't trust himself? Go in the middle, then help bag the rope. No need to mix it up too much as long as everyone is moving! :crackit:
Ropes can go down raps without a partner; chuck ropes down to people that can use em'.
Oh... this is a 300 foot drop? You got the rope? Go first, so we can get outta here before the monsoon hits. :wink:
Hmm... yes, I see that I am missing quite a few things. In my head I was picturing Zion slot canyons where most of the rappels are bolted and rigged. Logistics outside of "Zion's Rap-and-swim kiddie canyons", would be substantially different. (i.e. in sequencing I might be one of the last people down every time seeing that i'm a likely candidate for the meat anchor being 200+ lbs and all :haha:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
Hmmm, somewhat different, but not too much. Much time can be lost when an inexperienced person rebuilds an anchor OR sets a biner block. It's frequently the rate limiting factor for your car-to-car time, no matter what canyon you are in. I bet Tom stays toward the front of his pack. Just a guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
FWIW, on good-ish natural anchors, I think big guys should test em, and the smallest guy should always go last, rapping 'lightly'.
Also, you don't need to weigh 200 lbs to be a good meat anchor. I rapped off an 80lb kid once, no question he could do it (although he had doubts). So, that isn't a good reason to stay back when your advanced skills could be used elsewhere.
Like S.M. said, every rappel is different, even for what may seem as "basic" fireman's belay. Conditions of the rappel may require slight variation. And Knowing how and when to vary something requires training, but MOSTLY experience, which Newbies don't have. :haha: So yeah...leave room for variation according to needs, strengths, and abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
Yes, I'm sure some lazy canyoneers do exist :crazy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
Part of what I meant was that someone that is a semi-newbie might want the experience of doing a top belay under close supervision of an experienced canyoneer, so switching up the roles a bit at times would be desirable.
I don't know that 4 people constitutes a "large" group. With only 4 (as in the diagram) I think a schematic diagram is way over thinking it and you'll spend more time trying to keep every queued in accordance with the diagram than if you just went with the flow. The main group of 4 people I go with can get heaps done car to car in under 15 hours without ever feeling rushed without a diagram, and it's not because we are fast hikers. It's because everyone knows what they are doing. Even with 2 experienced people and 2 newbs, I can keep the pace up without ever feeling like we are dragging. The 2 experienced people are simply the book ends. Passing rope bags to make sure all the extra ropes are down right before the last man is a good MO if you ask me. Keep one of them up top but send down right before last man.
I think there are really only a few canyons with the kind of rapid fire rap sequences where this actually becomes a problem. Usually with hiking between raps, it all comes out in the wash...
Kinda think you are over thinking this. Every group is different, skill sets are different, and a group of 4 vs a group of 12 is a whole different dynamic. Also, every obstacle may require a different person to go first, second and/or last on rappel or down climb depending on..... whatever. Charting and graphing this would not make sense to me given the varied groups, both size and personalities, I have been with. Even the same group in a different canyon would likely pose a different order of things. Just my 2 cents
All I have to say to this is: at around 250 pounds, I'm the best meat anchor I've ever met! I don't usually go down last, though. I usually test the anchors. Also the ice in the winter. We figure if I can walk on it, everyone can. :lol8:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot Machine
Blake,
I kind of agree with some others that you may be over thinking it. Best laid plans just often don't work out. Having been with groups of 6 - 8 ( and more a couple of other times), you just lose control over how it all progresses. Too many people & they all get to socializing, etc., & it becomes like trying to herd a bunch of cats. Stick with the basic principles you laid out - keep the ropes up front; don't let your most qualified people slip to the back; maybe divide the group into two & let them leap frog each other with a "captain" & "first officer" assigned to each & keep them in the lead. Know your group & their skill levels. Beyond that, the diagrams are fun to think about, but the canyons seldom seem to allow for the "ideal" planning. IMHO
I think it is always a good idea to go in with a plan based on the canyon and your group and then adjust and adapt while descending. When I am in a small group of my experience friends we are so in synch very little communication is needed. When my partner and I bring a larger group of less experienced, we stick them in the middle, but we also allow them to set anchors and pull ropes with guidance. How else are they going to become self efficient? We will also even send them down first/last on shorter straight forward raps to gain that experience.
And if everyone is trained in the above they are also trained in dealing with problems while on rappel, so setting contingency anchors at every rappel is a complete waste of time and perhaps even more dangerous as you are complicating what should be a simple system.Quote:
Originally Posted by pikan
The only time I set contingency anchors is when I'm operating in "guide mode" and stand a high probably of having to rescue a noob.
When I operate with my skilled friends we never set contingency anchors.
YMMV
Tap'n on my Galaxy G3
I agree :) Every canyon and every group is different and that canyon logistics should be made custom to each adventure and group. With that said, I think there are some fundamental principles that we can use most of the time.
The picture above explains the method I used to get a group of 11 though Keyhole and Pine Creek canyon a few weeks ago. Essentially I had 8 noobs with me in those canyons. I didn't want to be the group that was the bottleneck, nor did I want to be the group that ended up freezing in the canyon for 8+ hours!
In order to prevent us from being "THAT" group, I read some post from some of the EXPERTS here on Bogley and the CC and came up with this diagram. It is based on some ideas commonly known as "Rolly Polly" or "First shall go last, and the last shall go first" methods.
In my personal experience (first time leading a group of 11 people) I needed a way to manage the group and this is what I came up with:
TRAINING: basically, I needed as many people in the group trained before we left. Even though many were noobs, spending 2 hours with them before the trip proved to be hugely beneficial.
RAPPEL MANAGEMENT: Every drop needed to be inspected and rigged properly (stone knot was commonly used), and protected with a belay (in our case a firemans belay). We also had 4 ropes in our group of 11 thus allowing for 4 separate drops to be rigged all at one time thus improving flow through the rapid fire rappel sections of the canyon.
ROPES AND SKILLED LEADERS FORWARD: Agreeing with most everyone's comments above, I felt it necessary to make sure that the persons in the lead had the ropes they needed to bypass the upcoming obstacles. Thus, any available rope needed to be passed forward so to be in the hands of the person who would next rig up the rappel. Ideally that person in front would have the SKILLS necessary to bypass the obstacle they came across. If that team lacked the skill obviously they would need to wait for someone with this skills to arrive.
EVERYONE HELPS: I have to often been the guy stuck in the back of the group stuffing and coiling rope. Being that guy isn't always fun. So.... I figure that everyone should be allowed to help rig and clean up the ropes :nod:. In the diagram, this naturally happens if the persons who rig up the rappel stay and manage the drop, thus allowing the others behind them to press on and rigg the subsequent rappel in the "rapid fire" rappel section. Obviously, if the next drop requires the expertise of the current rappel "manager", then that person might need to move ahead and appoint someone else to help manage the drop (if needed)
Anyway. Thanks for entertaining my questions and providing feedback. I like thinking about this stuff! Some of you think i am OVER THINKING things. I don't think so. To me this stuff seems simple and not complex. I think more people should be thinking more about canyon logistics. I think some of these recent accidents would be prevented if people would plan their canyons BEFORE they head into them.
For those who are curious to know. My relatively large group of 11 (8 noobs) made it through Keyhole in about 1 hour, and made it through the technical section of Pine Creek in about 2 hours. I was very proud of them. I also enjoyed very much walking up to a drop and already having it rigged for me :D It was nice not needing to babysit every drop!
However, the next day, I had a group of 5 in Engelstead and the above diagram hardly worked. we did our best to keep the ropes forward, but because the nature of the drops, it was hard to leap frog. So yes, I 100% agree that every canyon deserves its own logistics plan!
How do I become SO GOOD as to be completely invincible and NOT EVER NEED a rescue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I don't think Ice is saying that he is immune to all unforseen problems that could occur. In a skilled group, each person can prevent the common problems a noob may not be privy to, and if something unexpected does happens they are all capable of self rescue (tying off, getting unstuck, passing a knot, etc).
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by mzamp
In a skilled group if someone gets their big swinging daddy parts caught in the rappel devise the person simply corrects the situation and continues on. There is a very high probability that you will never even know a situation occurred unless they decide to share it with you....
On the other hand.....
If a noob gets there hair caught in the rap device correcting the situation becomes something of a minor inconvenience to a major rescue depending on the leaders skills and preparation. And EVERYONE in the group is going to hear about it for hours on end....
See the difference? :cool2:
:popcorn:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I do see the difference. That makes a lot of sense.
Sweet -Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
let me suggest some nuances that you might find beneficial.
First off - besides getting every one through the canyon without injury, what are your objectives? One objective I usually have, being me, is that the least-skilled people should get as much training as they are up for. Some noobs are challenged enough by just being on the trip and getting down the rappels, but often they are up for learning how to rig the rope (etc.) if done so in a nurturing manner.
So, for me the Rolly Polly is like you say, but with each person rather than in pairs. Each person gets the role of being in front (the best) and of being in back (the worst) and of being in-between. If a person in front comes to a drop they don't feel comfortable managing, then they ask for coaching from the next person behind. It is still their rap to rig and go last (if a total noob, maybe not last).
The Second to Last person is responsible for stuffing the rope, getting ready while the Last person rappels. The First shall be Last.
Of course, strict conformance to any particular scheme is silly. best to let things roll in a natural way, with the Rolly Polly as an ideal.
I guess, the main point I am trying to make is that involving everybody in the process and in the responsibility is a good thing. Brings everyone's skill set up to snuff as quick as possible.
In the Rolly Polly, I place myself behind the least-experienced person, usually. But if we are doing a canyon I have done before and other's have not, I end up floating around the back, letting the peeps who have not done the canyon before most of the time at the front. Unless everyone (or maybe just me) gets cold, or ???
:moses: