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In the interest of public safety, and, based on your videos from the below thread on "Teaking kids to rappell", I think you shouldn't be teaching rappelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Master
"Lock your knees"? And all that jumping around. No helmits in the second video. And so on.
Yikes yikes yikes.
Makes me wonder what qualifications, if any, you have to teach rappelling.
This isn't the same type of rappelling taught by, or referenced, by any certified climbing guide service or how-to manual I've seen written in the last 20+ years.
I can't imagine the liability...
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
Any websites you recomend for rapelling basics Brian? I would like to make sure my technique is correct, Im a noob, and I need all the tips I can get.
Im sure everyone understands constructive criticism but ouch that was harsh.
There are a ton of people who can teach you how to rappel much better than your computer/internet. Just throw out a request. How about me? Sure, what night?
:roll:
Ah, man, I didn't get to this thread in time. Can you repost the link to the videos? I'd like to see. (without judging)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Master
:roll:
Thanks Scout Master.
Wow, is all I can say. That got a little heated. I'm not going to comment on the video. It would be nice to know where some rappels are in the davis/weber county area. Anyone answer these yet?
A buddy and I about 15 years ago used to hike just south of the North Ogden Divide. It was about 80'. It was a nice overlook of the canyon road there to the north.Quote:
Originally Posted by codyb25
Sorry, I don't remember many details though. We just found a cliff and went to it.
I don't know the davis/weber county area very well. If you're down in SL or Utah County I could help more.
If you don't mind a drive, I always liked Echo Canyon for rappelling.
Yeah, looks like Scout Master would know where these are up north.
Thanks for the offer. I have been rappelling before and I think I have it down, I just wanted something of a guideline. Like Brian was saying locking knees isn't good. I never lock my knees while rappelling but its good to know this stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by price1869
I recently took a class at Hansen Mountaineering that was run by 12 Finger Outdoor Adventure. They did a great job of teaching rappelling. I was thinking that a "hard copy" of some guidelines would be nice though.
:roll:
Sounds good, I may just take you up on that (since I'll be headin' to Ogden for the climbing festival thing anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Master
There's a few routes to climb? I see one 5.6 on mountainproject. Are there other climbing routes?
Also, if you have copies of any of these, would you mind bringing them along (I think they're all BSA publications)?
Climb On Safely Training Outline
Climbing Merit Badge pamphlet
Climbing and Rappelling National Standards
"Topping Out: A B.S.A. Climbing/Rappelling Manual"
Climbing Lesson
Should be a nice day. Kinda bummed I'm going to be inside for the afternoon and evening, but, the festival should be fun.
http://www.jefflowe.info/climbfest/
Anyone going to the ClimbFest??
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
A climbing partner of mine pointed me to this thread, since I am a BSA Climbing Director and Council Climbing Director. I will have to say, after reading through this and the thread on teaching kids to rappel that what you appear to be doing, based on your comments and the video links you give, you are far from following the BSA guidelines for climbing and rappelling. Brian in SLC asks about some of the BSA publications (there are a couple of others, Brian, that you may want to see as well). Climb On Safely is the procedures and protocols that are to be followed in BSA climbing and rappelling. Two of the guidelines you do not appear to be following are the Supervision and Qualified Instructor ones. Qualified instructors do include certified guides, as well as BSA-trained Climbing Instructors and BSA-trained Lead Climbing Instructors (but not COPE instructors or directors except on artificial climbing structures). The National Guidelines specify equipment standards (including that helmets are to be used in BSA climbing and rappelling activities), as well as the qualifications for Climbing Directors, Lead Climbing Instructors, Climbing Instructors, Instructors in Training, and Bouldering Facilitators.
Even though you claim that you "have been teaching climbing and rappelling for most of 20 years", what you seem to be doing in the videos and from your comments indicates that there are some basics of teaching youth that you are not practicing. Teaching young people, especially adolescent males, is very different from climbing with your buddies or teaching adults. When BSA was setting up the climbing program a few years ago, they consulted the military, and quickly discovered that the military considers a 5% casualty rate to be acceptable. Clearly this is not acceptable when dealing with someone else's kids. Liability issues are a major driver of the BSA guidelines, hence are far more restrictive than what one might do with adults. You claim that you "have never had so much as a scratch on one of the kids." Hmmmm .... Well, looking at that slip in the video, I would say you were very lucky if your daughter did not get even a scratch, judging by the way she bounced her side and arm off the rock. And if the "no scratches" statement is true, you have been lucky to get away with it for the 20 years. (as an aside, I have been climbing for 50 years and instructing for over 40 years, including the full 8 years the BSA program has been in existence).
A couple of the responders remarked on the bouncing and the stiff, locked knee approach you teach. If you have been climbing for 20 years and if you went through the BSA Climbing Instructor course, as given in the Climbing Instructor course syllabus in Topping Out, you would know that bouncing on rappel puts extra stress on the anchors (people have died from rappel anchors pulling when bounced on like that), and when the rope goes unpadded over an edge as in your videos, there is extra wear on the rappel line. You appear to be using a dynamic rope for the rappelling, which is ok if on a climb. But if you have been climbing for 20 years, you are aware that the stretching of a dynamic rope allows extra movement over the edge (especially when bouncing), which wears the rope prematurely. That is why BSA prescribes using static ropes for rappel stations.
You say you are certified by BSA. Take a close look at your Climbing Instructor card (which is good for 2 years before renewal is required in any case). It says that the certificate is "for participation in training for Climbing" on the front and on the back is marked that you are "Authorized to instruct and supervise climbing/rappelling activities." It does NOT say you are *certified to instruct*. The certification is for "participation" in the course, which allows you to be "authorized" to instruct. The legal difference is significant. The wording is somewhat different between Lead Instructor and Instructor.
I would suggest that you have a talk with the Council professional who is advisor to the climbing program, your Council Climbing Director, and perhaps even with National.
who is BSA ?
I think it is the "Boy Scouts of America".Quote:
Originally Posted by nosivad_bor
It's too bad we can't just say "thanks for the videos, looks like you had fun. Here's a picture of me doing it (displaying helmet on head)".
I'd hate to see the charitable act of sharing videos turn into a submittal process, making sure all of the boxes are checked.
Sure, helmets are good. So is obeying the speed limit. I don't sit upright in my chair while I'm at the office, but I know I should.
Thanks for the videos Scout Master. I'm sure you know the best practices like most of us do, and please continue to submit your pictures and video.
Your fellow Eagle Scout,
Sombeech.
As long as you are climbing with your buddies or someone you met at the base of the climb, you can do whatever you want. The problem here is that Scout Master is talking about teaching ostensibly under BSA (yes, that's Boy Scouts of America) auspices. When it is under that venue, BSA gets liability, and so they get to set the rules. Same as when you hire a professional guide or guide service, or when you pay to climb in a gym. You are in their territory, so you play by their rules. If Scout Master wants to take his daughters climbing and teach them whatever way he wants, that's his choice and he gets to make the rules. If Sombeech wants to climb with him, the rules are whatever you agree on between you. If you both want to use parachute cord for a belay line or rappel line (people have done this), that's your choice. But if you are taking scouts out as a troop activity, you have to use a CE/UIAA single rope of 10mm or more diameter. BSA has insurance that will cover you if you play by its rules, but you are on your own if you don't. (I use a 9mm single rope for most of my personal climbing these days, but not for Scout climbing). Another thing you can't do in Scout climbing is teach lead climbing - all Scout climbing is top-rope, including rappelling and simulated lead climbing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
If you do take Scouts out climbing or rappelling and do not intend to follow BSA rules, then you better inform the parents in writing and have them sign a piece of paper that they understand this. If you are lucky and get away with no incidents, fine. But if anything happens, you are SOL as far as BSA is concerned.
My post was intended to alert people that if you want to teach Scouts climbing and rappelling, you should be aware of the legal ramifications. Yeah, I know, too many lawyers and insurance types in this world. But they get to make the rules, and to them, it is a serious liability issue.
it all makes more sense , I thought BSA was some kind of guide service. LOL
Sure, and as a younger feller, would have been easy to just waltz on by and figure that sooner or later, someone would get into trouble but no biggie, just Darwin and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
I look at the situation from the standpoint of, what if I end up climbing with a person who learned to rappel like that? There'd be no way I'd let anyone on a rope or gear of mine that'd mistreat it that way (not to mention their own personal safety). Puts everyone at risk.
Certainly don't mean to come across as too judgemental, or holier than thou, but, if you're teaching folks...well, that somehow in my mind deserves a bit more scrutiny and a comment if it ain't right.
So....thanks for the videos! Maybe we all can learn something from them...
-Brian in SLC
Well
I guess this is a good place for me to just say Good-By I have enough problems in my life I don't need any of you ragging on me.
Thanks to every one who has been so much fun and helpful here.
See you on the trail
Scout Master
This is exactly the situation we try hardest to avoid here on the forum. We've lost several good, contributing members from uutah.com, and I hate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Master
This situation could have been handled differently, perhaps with a much better outcome than Scout Master signing off. Dommage.
hank
Ya ya...heavy sigh...Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
I hate to come across as a big meany, poking a fork in someone's eye...
And I sure as heck don't spend my time doing something as unselfish as teaching many folks about anything, much less outdoorsy stuff...
I'm no good.
Wait a second Hank...I thought YOU were the safety nazi...
Redemption for me? Ahhh.....I think not...
Shoot, if that video woulda been posted in the "sport rappelling" forum, I'd have never seen it...
-Brian in SLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Master
I have been busy and have not had time to read stuff lately....
But don't go!!!!!!
I would MISS YOU!!!! :ne_nau:
Scoutmaster, don't take it wrong! I had a problem with the BSA Certification Guidlines when they were first presented, until I realized that they were for an indemnity purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Master
When I first got involved with Zion on the SAR Team 11 years ago, some of the things that we were doing seemed TOTALLY ridiculous to me! The redundancy was overwhelming, but now I adhere to the techniques (mostly!) like a fly on s#$+! The park has ongoing litigation from many incidents and its much simpler to have a standard that is part of the program, rather than try to explain each time something questionable.
I did not see the videos, and furthermore it's not my place to ridicule someone else. I would hope that constructive critisizm is a learning tool rather than an "obstruction". Stick around and we can all learn and have fun!
Bo :rockon:
I think there has been a bit of misinterpretation and overreaction here. First point is, I think it is good that people are willing to take the time and make the effort to introduce climbing and rappelling to young people. But the second point is that when you are working with youth who are not your own kids, you take on a very large responsibility to teach them in a safe environment. When you teach them under the auspices of Boy Scouts of America, you are obligated to follow the guidelines they have developed and laid out over the past decade or so. These guidelines were developed in response to the large and increasing amount of climbing and rappelling activity that has been going on in scouting organizations for many years (I and many friends and climbing partners were introduced to climbing 50 years ago in the scouting context), along with a number of accidents, some fatal, some resulting in lifelong disabilities, that involved major lawsuits. The people involved in the accidents as instructors had all had lots of experience with climbing. So a long hard look was taken, and the guidelines developed. The goal is safety (and that means reduction or elimination of the accidents, and the lawsuits). A secondary goal is that everyone plays by the same book and is on the same page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout Master
Some people consider that the guidelines are overly cautious. But keep in mind that when instructing youth in this program, you are taking on the responsibility of someone else's kids. Are you ready to explain why they got seriously injured or killed on your watch? As often pointed out, kids will be kids, and especially boys will be boys. If you have a group of them, there will be rough-housing and a short attention span, and one or two that want to wander off because they are bored waiting their turn.
It is also important to keep in mind that BSA does not teach youth (or adults) to climb or rappel - they introduce people to climbing and rappelling. That's the same thing as with the merit badges - they introduce the youth to hobbies, potential careers, and so on. The First Aid MB provides basic first aid, for example, it does not make someone an EMT, or even a First Responder. Hopefully, this will inspire the youth to continue on to do more in whatever area. It will not make a youth an expert climber, ready to take on El Cap or the Grand.
My purpose in posting was to provide a wake-up call that if someone is going to teach youth to climb and rappel, a very worthy and noble undertaking, there is an added responsibility, and if it is going to be in the context of Boy Scouts of America, there are guidelines that must be followed. If the guidelines are followed, BSA provides insurance and legal help (pretty important in our litigious society). If not, you leave yourself wide open to suits that may be based on real or imagined negligence (or an imagined "wrong touch").
The great thing about introducing youth (both male and female in the Venturing and Exploring programs) is that it provides a challenge, and can boost self-esteem and self-confidence, yet in a safe manner with a minimum of risk as long as the guidelines are followed.
Again, whatever you want to do with your buddies or your own kids is up to you. But when you are purporting to work with youth under BSA auspices, you need to follow their guidelines and rules.
Where in Echo canyon?Quote:
Originally Posted by jumar
I dunno about Echo Canyon itself, but just a few miles south of the canyon just north of Coalville has a good ledge and some overhangs that range from 40-80 feet or so. Been there a couple times. Especially in the summer as you can go to Echo Reservoir afterwards and swim around.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAWtrails
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...49a45a6c84.jpg
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Nothing like replying to a 12 year old post....Quote:
Originally Posted by RAWtrails
Somewhere near Echo, but towards Evanston, is a place called "poopers point", where people go Ski BASE jumping. I look for it every time I pass through, I think I've seen it. There would be some great rappelling there, maybe 200 feet.
Here's a video of the area
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRPy96J-GWI
Wow, Bogley turned 15 years old. Time flies. I guess we've gotta change that logo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Not bad for a dying site that should be dying every year.
I’m slow to the party... yeah I’ve driven by that spot. That pic is rad. #revivethepost
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Ive just had friends ask of good places to practice rappelling in the salt lake area. I don’t want to send them off to do canyons/waterfalls til they know what they’re doing.
Ogden 9th St crag. Pete’s Rock. Battle Creek. Red ledges. Any others super accessible and straightforward?
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