Granary Canyon, Uturn and... where did the granary go?! Bonus stone knot failure.

I was just getting back from Florida, a work trip. Nice to be home! I was home for approximately ten hours, time to go!
Chuck the gear in the van, and we are out!
http://i.imgur.com/oV1Kb52.jpg?1

First rap into Granary:
Attachment 73691
From the top:
Attachment 73692
Attachment 73693

Last rap out of Granary:
Attachment 73695

The anchors were all in top shape, all looking shiny new. Bomber bolt hangers on last rap were confidence inspiring, but I thought it would have been nice to have seen chains on that one, due to their exposure.

Flower garden near where the granary was, I thought.
Attachment 73696

And this is where the real mystery begins. What happened to the granary? We looked high and low, and it was gone. There was a few sorry piles of badly stacked rocks on a ledge, but on close inspection, it looked pretty ramshackle, like recent stacking.
I was here last year, but short on time and didn't get a good look at it, but I remember there being a structure, probably the granary. My wife was excited to see it, but felt pretty bummed that it was gone.
Was it wrecked by off roaders? Destroyed by a falling boulder? Did we just miss the actual location?

We did Uturn the night before, started pretty late in the day, finishing in the dark.
Attachment 73697
Attachment 73698
Attachment 73699
Attachment 73700

In Uturn is where we experienced our first Stone Knot failure to release. You can see, it didn't fully untie when we pulled the "fiddlestick" out.
Attachment 73694
After experimenting with it a few times, we believe the cause is a too small fiddlestick. I was feeling cheap last year, so I made my own, out of PEX tube, with a dowel glued in. It was great all last year, the PEX is real slippery and pulls easy, but first two raps on it this year and it got stuck. I was jumaring up it, in this condition (yikes) when luckily another group appeared behind us, and freed it up for us. Twice. :fitz: If that was anyone here, I owe you a wobbly pop.

We didn't use it again. We have used it at least two dozen times last year, no problems at all. We mocked it up, using a larger diameter piece of flotsam, and it released better. I think my PEX tube is too small, making the stone knot too small. The Imlay Fiddlestick is wider, leaving the Stone Knot more open when pulled, and less likely to get jammed up (fiddlestuck?) when pulled out and pulled on.

Solution for the remainder of the weekend was to not use it again, and just pull rope. Ugh. Ah well. Fun was still had, no worries. Glad to be here, and not Florida. :cool2:

If the photos don't show up, it's because I stole them from my wife's Facebook page. If that is the case, someone tell me, and I will put them on imgur, or somewhere.

We did Granary last October and missed the regular anchor for the last rap and spied one well to the north (about 300 feet?) on a sloping slickrock edge. We had to rap down off a tree to a steep slickrock slope that had a smoothly curved steep drainage that ended at a cliff. This is where the anchor was that we spied from the top. When we saw the anchor up-close, we were spooked, as it looked like two tent spikes driven into the rock connected by old webbing. My advice to anyone is to not go down that way.. FWIW

RE the stone knot not releasing: The Smooth Operator is even thicker than the Fiddlestick. I have never had a problem with it.. interesting to hear about a skinnier version of the Fiddlestick getting stuck, though. I wonder of all such devices can generically be called "Fiddlestick" or is that name reserved for the Imlay CG Fiddlestick only? If so, is there a generic term for these stone knot pin devices?

misleading title - The stone knot didn't fail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dentedvw

Last rap out of Granary:
Attachment 73695

The anchors were all in top shape, all looking shiny new. Bomber bolt hangers on last rap were confidence inspiring, but I thought it would have been nice to have seen chains on that one, due to their exposure.

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The anchors in your picture are new since I last did Granary a couple years ago. You used to anchor at the tree on the rim and it was a 200' rappel. You can easily see the rope grooves in the background cause by the old anchors and rope pull.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dentedvw

In Uturn is where we experienced our first Stone Knot failure to release. You can see, it didn't fully untie when we pulled the "fiddlestick" out.

After experimenting with it a few times, we believe the cause is a too small fiddlestick. I was feeling cheap last year, so I made my own, out of PEX tube, with a dowel glued in. It was great all last year, the PEX is real slippery and pulls easy, but first two raps on it this year and it got stuck. I was jumaring up it, in this condition (yikes) when luckily another group appeared behind us, and freed it up for us. Twice. :fitz: If that was anyone here, I owe you a wobbly pop.

We didn't use it again. We have used it at least two dozen times last year, no problems at all. We mocked it up, using a larger diameter piece of flotsam, and it released better. I think my PEX tube is too small, making the stone knot too small. The Imlay Fiddlestick is wider, leaving the Stone Knot more open when pulled, and less likely to get jammed up (fiddlestuck?) when pulled out and pulled on.

Solution for the remainder of the weekend was to not use it again, and just pull rope. Ugh. Ah well. Fun was still had, no worries. Glad to be here, and not Florida. :cool2:

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Current Fiddlestick is the same thickness as the Smooth Operator. I don't think it has to do with the girth of the unit.

Did you use an UPWARD Stone Knot? DOWNWARD STONES tend to get stuck just like that.

Jugged it? you crazy man!!@! I hope you gave it 2 or 3 persons total weight before you did so.

Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dentedvw

Last rap out of Granary:
Attachment 73695

The anchors were all in top shape, all looking shiny new. Bomber bolt hangers on last rap were confidence inspiring, but I thought it would have been nice to have seen chains on that one, due to their exposure.

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Due to what exposure??? (Meaning, what do you mean? There are several ways your statement could be interpreted.)

Chains seem to whack around if there is any flow over the anchor, and tear up the soft sandstone.

Unfortunate that Stone-Knot-Pin-Devices were not part of the vocabulary when those canyons were opened up, or those rope grooves could have been avoided.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Unfortunate that Stone-Knot-Pin-Devices were not part of the vocabulary when those canyons were opened up, or those rope grooves could have been avoided.

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Or someone could have just done a little better job of establishing the original anchors. It's not like there is a shortage of possibilities.


There is a big tree at the top that is obvious and simple, the first guys used it and everyone else followed suit. The original two-stage rappel should have been broken up into two sections long ago.


The first time I went through the canyon I thought about establishing better anchors and correcting the two-stage rappel.... but it was late, I was tired, there was beer in the truck at the bottom, yada, yada.....


It's nice to see someone has corrected the problem. Now if some good citizen will go over and fix the shitty lean-too anchors on Rock of Ages the Moab routes will be in great shape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Current Fiddlestick is the same thickness as the Smooth Operator. I don't think it has to do with the girth of the unit.

Did you use an UPWARD Stone Knot? Upwards tend to get stuck just like that.

Jugged it? you crazy man!!@! I hope you gave it 2 or 3 persons total weight before you did so.

Tom

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You mean "Downward" Stone Knots tend to get stuck?

And X2 on " you crazy man!!@! "

i recently had a PEX fiddlestick get stuck, but in a different manner: the knot was simply too tight. I had line-of-sight on the stick and pulled with bouncing bodyweight to no avail.

Good question about the "Fiddlestick" nomenclature: item vs. technique, what to call it, etc. Already we have "Fiddlesticking" and "Going Smooth" as technique descriptors. I hope this nonsensical trend stops and reverses.

p.s. knots don't fail, people do :)

I'm probably drunk but isnt that picture from the last rap at ROA? If not I'm confused about Granary? Are you still going off the tree and then is there a bolted anchor at the second drop? Haven't been in years but that picture doesn't look right?

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All those pics look like ROA?

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First rap pick is pool arch?

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True, it wasn't a failure of the knot, it was maybe a failure of the system? The knot, even it it's half there state held firm. Three of us yanking, and then me bouncing on prussiks didn't budge it. I aid climb too, so while it was spooky, it wasn't the spookiest thing I have done. Keep in mind, this was the first and second rap of Uturn, not the first of Granary, thankfully. I would have been somewhat less inclined to do that on Granary. Probably would have found a way to climb out somewhere else instead.

Last year, on the first test rap with the PEX stick (or what you like) I was using the hollow PEX, and it was folding into the stone knot. Not ideal! I scrounged up some sticks and jammed them in. It stayed that way all year, and this winter I glued in a dowel. I like how cheap it was, and how slippery, but I think I will be buying an Imlay fiddlestick soon all the same.

I have been tying an upwards stone, should I be tying it downwards for easier release?

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Originally Posted by hank moon

You mean "Downward" Stone Knots tend to get stuck?

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Big big OOPS. OK, I fixed it.

Tom

First rap pic is Pool Arch. Anchor is a Juniper, for better or worse.
Second pic of me standing at anchors is the last rap on what I thought was called Granary Canyon AKA Pool Arch Canyon, if what I was told is right.
Last handful of pics are from what I thought was named Uturn.
Again, I have only personal experience on them, I haven't consulted any books, if there are any. So, names may be wrong? Could be. Feel free to correct me, it's good to know. :)

??? Are you sure you were in Granary? Tom I'll need to go look at your site but I thought you were recommending an upward stone? ????

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I'm probably drunk but isnt that picture from the last rap at ROA?

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You are correct. Guess I better look closer next time.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hank moon

i recently had a PEX fiddlestick get stuck, but in a different manner: the knot was simply too tight. I had line-of-sight on the stick and pulled with bouncing bodyweight to no avail.

Good question about the "Fiddlestick" nomenclature: item vs. technique, what to call it, etc. Already we have "Fiddlesticking" and "Going Smooth" as technique descriptors I hope this nonsensical trend stops and reverses.

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Since I originated the concept and the item now known as the FiddleStick, here are my thoughts:

- calling the technique and the item in general "FiddleStick" is just fine.

- making a product and selling it, and calling it a FiddleStick is not good.

- making a product and selling it, and calling it a "Tongue Stick" for Fiddlesticking anchors in canyon seem fine to me.

- so I'm good with someone calling their homemade FiddleStick a "homemade FiddleStick".

Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

??? Are you sure you were in Granary? Tom I'll need to go look at your site but I thought you were recommending an upward stone? ????

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Yes.

Upward Stone good. Downward Stone not good.

Afternoon sugar low, not so good either.

Tom

The canyon you did is commonly known as Rock of Ages. Yes the last anchor spot SUCKS. Big exposure.

Tom?
From your site
There are several versions of the Stone Knot, but the one we recommend for the FiddleStick is the Upward Overhand Stone, which has the most consistent disintegration once the Stick is pulled. Learn more about tying and uses of the Stone knot

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