Grand Canyon trip length

So I finally got permitted for a 2014 grand trip but have never been on one before. Now that I'm in the beginning stages of planing, the reality of being off work for some period of time has become a problem for some of my group.

I was planning on 15-18 river days but can it be ran and enjoyed in 12?

Any idea how a river itinerary would look for a 12 day trip from lees to diamond creek? Is there time for any slots or day hikes or would we need to just muscle out the miles every day?

Any past experience is appreciated.

I'm new to the whole thing of running the entire river from Lees Ferry to Pierce Ferry as well and coming up with the time needed off was simple! "Just Do It!" Anyway here is our itinerary beginning in 17 days from today. Keep in mind that we'll be on the river for 21 days. Some of the rowing days will be pretty short and we'll have a few layover camps as well.

Day #	Date	Daily Itinerary	Camp	Rowing Miles	Camping Option 2
-1	16-Mar	Meet at Flagstaff at Hotel Monte Vista Eat at Thai @ Monte V and stay Monte V or Your Choice
0	17-Mar	Meet MOE (3780 N Eagle Mountain Dr, Flagstaff, AZ 86004) to ride shuttle to Lee's Ferry (TIME TBD). Rig rafts (ETA TBD). Dinner at Marble Canyon Lodge (6:30) Van @ 6 PM	boater's camp or lodge	0
1	18-Mar	Ranger briefing at 9am then launch at 11am. Internal Safety Briefing, SOP, Pre Launch. Due to late start, may not have time for dayhikes - but possible hikes are Jackass (8) and Soap (11). Brown's Inscription (12.1L)	Hot Na Na (16.7L)	17	Soap (11.3R)
2	19-Mar	North Canyon - nice easy. Fence Fault is tougher and long. If we camp at South, South Canyon and Stantons Cave; also some Pueblo dwellings near South Canyon.	Silver Grotto (29.5L)	13	Fence Fault
3	20-Mar	Silver Grotto, South Canyon (Ruins, Stanton's Cave), Redwall Cavern (game of football?). Stop at Vaseys for Water? Shinumo technical in the morning.	Lower Buck Farm (41.2R)	12	Nautiloid (35.0L), Tatahatso (37.9L), Pres. Harding (44.0L), Eminence (44.5L)
4	21-Mar	Hike up Saddle Canyon to waterfall Stop at Bert's Boat (41.1R)	Nankoweap (53.1R)	12	Little Nankoweap (52.1R)
5	22-Mar	Layover Day. Nankoweap Creek to Mystic Falls for the speedy, or Nankoweap Mesa, or Tilted Mesa, or up the break in Little Nanko. Short hike to the granaries.	Nankoweap (53.1R)	0	Little Nankoweap (52.1R)
6	23-Mar	Stop off at LCR to play. Carbon/Lava Loop option.	Lava (65.9R)	13	Carbon (65.1R)
7	24-Mar	Tanner petroglyphs (68R); Basalt Canyon waterfall (70R); Unkar Pueblo Dwellings (72.7R); Tabernacle (74.3 R); 75 Mile Creek.	Rattlesnake (74.5)	9	Nevill's (75)
8	25-Mar	Vishnu Creek (81.6R); Clear Creek (84R)	Cremation (87.7L) If we have exchanges	13	Zoroaster (85.0L)
9	26-Mar	Phantom Ranch (88) break to get lemonade and mail post cards; Trinity (91.5R) short and easy?; 94 Mile Creek; Granite Camp Tammie Rehab. Crystal Creek (98)	Upper Crystal (98.7R)	11	Schist (96.5L), Boucher (97.2L)
10	27-Mar	Gems? Any suggestions Ross Wheeler Boat (108.4L)	Upper Bass (108.5R)	10	Bass (109.0)
11	28-Mar	BASS LAYOVER DAY	Upper Bass (108.5R)	0	Bass (109.0)
12	29-Mar	Elves Chasm multi-levels from below	Fossil (125.4L)	16	Below Fossil (126.1L)
13	30-Mar	Mile 130 Waterfall - short and easy; Stone Creek and Galloway loop - long and hard.	Below Tapeats (134.5R)	9	Racetrack (134.2R)
14	31-Mar	Deer Creek & Kanab/Whispering Falls?	Above Olo (145.9L)	10	Above Kanab (143.9L)
15	1-Apr	Explore Matkat & Panameta?	Matkat Hotel (148.9L)	3	Below Matkat (148.9L)
16	2-Apr	150 Mile Canyon; 1/3 Day at Havasu	Tuckup (165R)	17	Ledges (152.1R), Upper Ledges (151.9R)
17	3-Apr	Tuckup conglomerate arch; National (166L) ; Fern Glen Canyon (168R)	Above Anvil (178.0L)	13	Above Lava (179.5L)
18	4-Apr	Whitmore Trail, Parashant Wash	Parashant (198.9R)	20	Hualapai Acres (194.6L)
19	5-Apr	202 Rock Art at mile 202; Spring Canyon (204.3); Indian Canyon; Bundy Jars	Granite Park (209.1L)	10	Upper Fall Canyon (211.8R),
20	6-Apr	Must pass Diamond Creek. Stop at Travertine Canyon for a short time(229L). Go as far as we can this day for our last camp site. From River mile 224.5 to River mile 235 there doesn't seem to be too many as marked on my map	221 Mile (221.6R)	12	222L
21	7-Apr	Pierce take-out or extra day; Time permitting, go to Columbine Waterfall right before take-out MUST PASS DIAMOND CREEK	Night Float from Separation (239.8R)	18	Night Float
22	8-Apr	Pierce take-out (279)	N/A - Take Out	42

Here are the daily rowing miles breakdown

Camp	Rowing Miles
boater's camp or lodge	0
Hot Na Na (16.7L)	17
Silver Grotto (29.5L)	13
Lower Buck Farm (41.2R)	12
Nankoweap (53.1R)	12
Nankoweap (53.1R)	0
Lava (65.9R)	13
Rattlesnake (74.5)	9
Cremation (87.7L) If we have exchanges	13
Upper Crystal (98.7R)	11
Upper Bass (108.5R)	10
Upper Bass (108.5R)	0
Fossil (125.4L)	16
Below Tapeats (134.5R)	9
Above Olo (145.9L)	10
Matkat Hotel (148.9L)	3
Tuckup (165R)	17
Above Anvil (178.0L)	13
Parashant (198.9R)	20
Granite Park (209.1L)	10
221 Mile (221.6R)	12
Night Float from Separation (239.8R)	18
N/A - Take Out	42

Thanks Bo. I will certainly use this to help build mine.

Believe me, I'm taking the time off ! It's some of the other group members. I see several 12 day guided trips but I'm not sure what their itineraries look like. I will probably reach out to one of them and hope they are kind enough to share one.

Thanks again for the info! Hope you have a great time. I have a year to wait.

Awesome, I'm excited for you guys. A lot of the fun is in the planning :2thumbs:

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I see several 12 day guided trips but I'm not sure what their itineraries look like.

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One thing to consider is that the time of year that most guided trips use has much more daylight than November.

In May or June, for example, you can set up camp at 4 pm and still have several hours of daylight left to explore things. Not so in November.

Agreed, I have a feeling there may 1-2 folks hiking out at phantom ranch to a shuttle vehicle. This way the trip doesn't have to rush and they can still meet their timelines.

It's a rare trip for me, and I want to make sure I get the most out of it, at the same time I am open to group dynamics and timelines.

I've just returned from a 21* day trip, so I thought I'd share my experience with you. 21 days was a nice amount of time to have, it allowed for two layover days and a fair amount of time for exploration off river. We also had shorter days, due to the trip being very early in the season. The timing of your trip will dictate much about what you can accomplish in a day (during daylight).

I wouldn't say we had any 'aggressive' river days where we were trying to log a large amount of miles, that is, until the very last day. We did a night float from Separation Canyon to Pearce Ferry Takeout (that's another thread all together ;)

If you are in a high water, mid season situation you may be able to log many more miles a day than we did.

I was one of those that had some issues getting this much time off work, but in the end, I'm glad I made the sacrafices I did and would recommend that you encourage others to do the same.

Needless to say, enjoy the next several months of planning and preparation. They are critical to the success of your trip. Our trip leader created an online forum that we used to have conversation threads about all aspects of the trip. It worked really well and we were able to do lots of group planning through it.

Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy - this will be a great experience for you :-D

Shan- thanks for the insight. I have an early November trip, so daylight will be a factor. I think we're narrowing it down to 18 river days including the night float.

If mileage becomes a factor we may not get a layover day. I would love to hear about the night float.

Thanks again.

Right off the bat, I would suggest two things for the night float: a powerful light, and good timing with the phase of the moon (fingers crossed for full).

We had 7 boats in our group - (6) 18 ft rafts and (1) 16 foot cataraft. We began with the boats in two rows of 3 and the cataraft trailing behind, very soon we realized this wasn't going to work and brought the cataraft up on the sterns of the back row.

We initially thought that we could have two person watch teams sit in the outer two boats in the first row, but it quickly became apparent that we need four person watch teams in each of the outer boats.

There were a few obstacles that we were told to watch closely for: including the docks, not bumping into the silt banks (which will deposit large amounts of sand onto your boats), and sandbars (especially because of the low water).

Something we were not warned about was the cable on river left near the bat cave - we plowed right into it clotheslining the front boats and startling everyone!

We expected to make 4mph, but made closer to 3mph on the float. Not sure if that was due to the low water or another factor. We'd given ourselves a buffer to reach the take-out, so we were ok, but we were on the river from 7:30PM to 9:00AM. At Grand Wash Cliffs, we disengaged the flotilla and paddled individually to the take-out, at the very moment we broke apart the wind picked up and the last few miles were really tough, which added to the time (we'd been really lucky with virtually no wind/rain during the trip).

It was definitely a unique experience, and can be done safely, but be prepared!

you might be able to run it in 12 days but why would you? if people can't get the time off work then find some who can. i did it in feb. and we were on the river for 25 days with 9 layover days. it was so nice and relaxing. this is a trip that should not be rushed.

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Originally Posted by denaliguide

you might be able to run it in 12 days but why would you? if people can't get the time off work then find some who can.

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I agree. As difficult as it is to secure permits, or as long as it will be until your next run through the big ditch, you'll want to make this trip all it can be.

another thing that i just remembered. people can either come in or go out at phantom. that way you could accommodate some others time schedules without impacting the total length of your permit.

How many rafts are you taking denali?

12 days sounds like alot.

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Originally Posted by Mtnseeker1

How many rafts are you taking denali?

12 days sounds like alot.

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we had 6 rafts on the trip for a group of 14. 5 were 18 foot rentals from PRO and my 16 footer. 12 days is a short trip to me for a grand canyon trip. i just don't under stand why you would do less than the maximum number of days allowed on the permit.

12 days is what the fastest commercial rowing trips do it in.

How they do it: They don't HAVE to stop to scout ANY rapids. (they may scout Hance, Crystal and Lava). They know the menu and the cooler system backwards and forwards, and can put out a breakfast or dinner for 28 people in 45 minutes in the dark, a lunch in 15 minutes. They know each hike they are going to do, where to pull in, where to tie up, and they have prepped their passengers so they are ready to hike when they hit the beach. They know where to camp to find (or avoid) early or late sun. They tend to run in the summer, when the days are longer, and water is higher (faster). They spread out on the easy days and bunch up for the bigwater, so no one has to wait for any other boat. Their slowest rower may be faster than your fastest rower. They don't get stuck in eddies, or flip their boats (very often).

The boatmen are working, so relaxation is not their priority. They can unload their boats, set up the kitchen and the toilet, pull the food, and have dish water started in the time it can takes six private boats to pull into the same eddy, get tied up, and find their ibuprofen. (this is not a criticism of people on vacation, just a comparison with professionals who do it for a living)

If you want to maximize your fun, take 16 -18 days depending on time of year. If you want to be rushed loading, unloading, rowing and running rapids, take 12. Hiking people in and out at Phantom can be your friend.

Having said that, I'd rather do a 12 day trip than not do a trip. 12 days will cut into your hiking and your relaxing in camp.

John

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Originally Posted by Bshelton

So I finally got permitted for a 2014 grand trip but have never been on one before. Now that I'm in the beginning stages of planing, the reality of being off work for some period of time has become a problem for some of my group.

I was planning on 15-18 river days but can it be ran and enjoyed in 12?

Any idea how a river itinerary would look for a 12 day trip from lees to diamond creek? Is there time for any slots or day hikes or would we need to just muscle out the miles every day?

Any past experience is appreciated.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bshelton

So I finally got permitted for a 2014 grand trip but have never been on one before. Now that I'm in the beginning stages of planing, the reality of being off work for some period of time has become a problem for some of my group.

I was planning on 15-18 river days but can it be ran and enjoyed in 12?

Any idea how a river itinerary would look for a 12 day trip from lees to diamond creek? Is there time for any slots or day hikes or would we need to just muscle out the miles every day?

Any past experience is appreciated.

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Did you get an itinerary figured out?

John

for perspective

wife and I did a 10 day commercial trip, 220 river miles almost 30 yeas ago, on rafts with outboard motors. Motoring along less interesting parts allowed us much time for the neat side hikes (up canyons, waterfalls etc).