Well, a good question. Now that we've all expressed great relief that everything came out ok other than Dad's knee, are 'we' ready for a real, critical analysis? Don't mistake that for a simple question.Quote:
Originally Posted by trackrunner
A real debrief would involve some painful statements. LOTS of stuff to say about this whole thing. A lot of ground to cover. Are the principle actors up for (recovered enough for) to do a good job of this, and allow themselves to be criticized? Are the Bogley BigShots willing to give up their posturing and cheap frat-boy 'jokes' (including pointing up my arrogance - a too-easy target!) in order to participate as mature adults? Y'all up for an adult discussion, unlike normal Bogley-fare?
The Canyons Group Big Shots are very clear that this kind of adult conversation is not something that can take place over here in the "Bog". I have hopes that it can. I think it is important to do so here for three main reasons:
1. Participation of the folks involved in the discussion would be helpful to understand what happened. While the story has generously been told in detail, questions remain on specific details of thinking (rather than details of actions, which are well-told). Also, the debrief would be more effective if the people involved get the first chance to critique their own actions.
2. People who participate on Bogley but not on Canyons are an important constituency for the kind of information a good debrief would generate. Less politely, the technical level at Bogley in general is not as high as the technical level at Canyons Group, and Bogleyites are more likely to repeat the same mistakes unless they are made extremely clear. Canyons Group certainly includes a wide range of abilities, and Bogley certainly has the advantage that people with little technical knowledge or canyon experience have no compunctions about posting and sharing their opinions. (see the next point).
3. To me, one of the factors that needs to be discussed is what I call "the Bogley attitude", by which I mean the attitude that this stuff is not really all that technical, so there is not that much to know. My comments in an effective debrief would take aim squarely at this attitude, and would hopefully penetrate some of the hard-headed, anti-technicality of the Bogley environment.
Factors that might make a de-brief at Bogley ineffective include:
1. The Bogley hard-headed, anti-technical attitude. To me, Ice is the source of the poster boy of this problem; and Bogleyites taking umbrage at being called incompetent (and their friends being called incompetent) will interfere with an effective debrief.
2. Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).
3. Rawness/Emotion: hey, it has only been a week, and there are significant emotions involved for quite a few people here. It may not be possible to have an adult conversation here with people keyed up by the recent events.
4. Bogley threads rarely stay on track and on purpose. Even if I lay down some ground rules for the discussion, will people follow them?
5. Perhaps my arrogant attitude has already pissed off enough people that an adult conversation over here on Bogley is no longer possible.
So, players, you up for a good debrief - If so I have spent some time contemplating a useful format and style, and can kick it off soon, if y'all are up for some of the stuff I've talked about above.
In any case, it is likely a parallel and/or subsequent debrief would also take place over on Canyons Group, and it would be great if the players could also participate over there.
Tom (no moses, though this is hardly rant-free)