What's Wrong with Toss 'n Go?

Hi Gang,

Being a noob, I solicit advice & opinions from those more experienced. I took a training course, and learned several rigging techniques (static, releasable, contingency, etc). I was given the advice that it's best to be able to lower someone should their rappel device jam, or they panic and need to be lowered.

Since then I talked with a couple very experienced people (both grew up climbing, 30+ yrs rock climbing/alpine/trad/mountaineering/canyoneering) who said that while they've seen those things happen, there are easier work arounds, and that while it's good to know those rigging techniques, they're overly complex and I should just keep it simple: toss 'n go, rappel double strand.

Thoughts?

generally an experienced group will do primarily toss-n-go unless some special circumstance demands differently

I went with a group that needlessly over-complicated the first ten foot drop we got to. I let them do their thing for five minutes, then I just downclimb the dang drop.

I've gone with another group that clipped my rope to the anchor, because that's what they had been taught to do, and were unwilling to learn any new or different techniques. Needless to say, when it came time to pull the rope, we had to ascend the rope to unclip it from the anchor.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...-Strand-Rappel

It's easy to spot noobie canyoneers who have just taken a canyoneering class, they are the ones over complicating something as simple and easy as a straightforward rappel.

I see this is well travelled ground. Would it be safe to say that one wouldn't rig a releasable contingency anchor unless the situation demanded it?

Toss and go is just great except when it is not. If there is any possibility that you will need to ascend back up a rope, toss and go will not do and the rope has to be blocked. There is no substitute for knowing what to expect. Experience and knowledge of what one is likely to encounter in a particular canyon and on a particular rap goes a long way. A lot of the complicated set ups one sees in courses are very helpful when canyoneering with inexperienced canyoneers. Setting up a blocked rap with a releasable contingency is useful when one anticipates that a canyoneer may need to be lowered off of a rappel. For that reason, guides often set up raps that way. With a competent team of experienced canyoneers, that is an unlikely situation.

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Originally Posted by spinesnaper

Toss and go is just great except when it is not. If there is any possibility that you will need to ascend back up a rope, toss and go will not do and the rope has to be blocked.

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Wrong! If you know what you are doing ascending double rope is only slightly more difficult than ascending single rope. The rope certainly doesn't need to be blocked to ascend. A competent canyoneer should know how to ascend single or double line.

If you find the need to set contingency's because the group lacks the required skills you are guiding, not canyoneering. That is a big difference in my humble opinion. YMMV

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Originally Posted by spinesnaper

Toss and go is just great except when it is not. If there is any possibility that you will need to ascend back up a rope, toss and go will not do and the rope has to be blocked.

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I think there's a higher possibility of your rope getting stuck on a rappel if you add a biner block or knot block to it...especially on canyons with deep grooves in them (group got their rope stuck in Behunin recently due to the biner getting jammed in a rope groove).

And, yeah, as primarily a climber, I've ascended my rappel lines before, double strand. In winter, at 10 below zero F, on icy, stiff, skinny, frozen ropes. Prusik cord doesn't care (its the honey badger of the ascending tools...ha ha).

Toss and go for me unless I'm rigging for contingency or in an active water course. Its amazing to me how many folks rappel single strand off a blocked rope when they don't need to. I think double strand is easier on the gear, and, easier on the terrain. The deep grooves in the canyons? Caused by single strand rappelling IMHO.

Have always liked this post written by Kelly on safety and systems and thinking. Whatever system to rappel you choose...

http://kellycordes.com/2011/07/31/sa...s-on-thinking/

Finishes with this quote:

Overall, yes, learn your gear. Learn your systems. Know how to lower from an auto-blocked belay device. Know how to escape a belay and transfer the load. And, I’d say, develop your systems and make your decisions based not on emotion or old-school dogma or far-fetched exceptions, but on likely scenarios and their consequences. It’s the best way, I think, to strike that balance between speed and safety. And far better than staying on the couch.

Should I be rappelling single strand so I can lower a partner who's stuck on rappel? Never had to do it. Heard about folks gettin' stuck on rappel. Never seen it. Could it happen? Yeah maybe....but, for that, I refer to KP's comment from Kelly's article (he's referring to "escaping the belay" which I'm co-oping for my point):

And IF I needed to escape the belay, I’d figure it out – because I’m not an idiot. I’ve also never needed to escape the belay in 15 years of climbing.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

I've ascended my rappel lines before, double strand. In winter, at 10 below zero F, on icy, stiff, skinny, frozen ropes. Prusik cord doesn't care (its the honey badger of the ascending tools...ha ha).

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[emoji23] nice.

"Prusik cord doesn't care" has now become a standard part of my climbing vocabulary.

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Originally Posted by burley

[emoji23] nice.

"Prusik cord doesn't care" has now become a standard part of my climbing vocabulary.

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X2

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Originally Posted by AlohaChris

Hi Gang,

Being a noob, I solicit advice & opinions from those more experienced. I took a training course, and learned several rigging techniques (static, releasable, contingency, etc). I was given the advice that it's best to be able to lower someone should their rappel device jam, or they panic and need to be lowered.

Since then I talked with a couple very experienced people (both grew up climbing, 30+ yrs rock climbing/alpine/trad/mountaineering/canyoneering) who said that while they've seen those things happen, there are easier work arounds, and that while it's good to know those rigging techniques, they're overly complex and I should just keep it simple: toss 'n go, rappel double strand.

Thoughts?

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I use a lot of both methods, but... rappelling SRT does give you more options during emergencys.

If you are that guy, who pounds in screws with a hammer, T&G is all you need!
If you believe that screwdrivers do a fine job driving screws and hammers work great on nails.....

You might consider more than one tool in your canyoneering tool kit.

To answer your question--there is nothing wrong with toss n go, it's one tool.

I used to just bring a 9/16" wrench with me in my truck when I traveled the back country,

then I found out more than one thing could go wrong so over the years I acquired a complete

tool kit to keep me from becoming stranded, ymmv.(ps--I never just carried a 9/16" wrench:cool2:)

Or... if you are the type of guy that puts on a complete Haz-Mat suit, fires up the air compressor, unwinds 50' of air hoses, hooks up your pneumatic air hammer all to pound in one simple nail you are going to love single rope with contingency anchors.

While it's nice to have a toolbox full of tools there is really no need to use them all on every project.

I think I benefit from having a small toolbox. Maybe I should have toolbox envy....

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Wrong! If you know what you are doing ascending double rope is only slightly more difficult than ascending single rope. The rope certainly doesn't need to be blocked to ascend. A competent canyoneer should know how to ascend single or double line.

If you find the need to set contingency's because the group lacks the required skills you are guiding, not canyoneering. That is a big difference in my humble opinion. YMMV

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True. Somewhere in my gear box I have a shunt, a mechanical prusik that works on a doubled rope. I carry prusik material but mostly I reach for my shiny toys to ascend single line. Might be interesting to put the devices aside and dial in the prusik as an exercise. On the other hand the micro traxion and the basic ascender make life pretty easy for ascending.

I find myself using SRT for the first peeps down and often pulling the biner block and rapping double strand these days. Peeps I go with are often lighter and don't need/want the friction of DRT. I decided to pull the biner due to some hard pulls caused by it. Of course, if the rope is long enough for DRT..

On other raps, I use the Smooth Operator and no one has died yet. It's actually potentially easier than the old techniques in many situations IMO (no threading lots of rope through a rapide). Once you get used to rigging it, it's so %^& simple and fast.