Originally Posted by
reflection
Bob, others ( Hank is already dialed up in all/most of this)
It's a bit of a siren sound when pictures, reports and details of a canyon are posted - particularly the down and up is involved with Boundary.
I'm happy you made it up and down, without "damage" to anyone's body or ego.
I've done that venture 6-7 times, and the best I can say is, it's nice to leave Lava camp at maybe nine and get back around 3 or 4, with the MIA NOT in the rear view mirror.
We'd done "some of the Oaks and then back up Middle Oak (many years back) with climbing harnesses; that venture (ouch) caused us to research, research and then to recalibrate completely the "planned" multiple raps and ascending game.
For those of you that have NOT done it, if one ascends, in dry conditions and are NOT carrying back up heavy/wet/dry ropes, then there are arguably a number of methods that can successfully be used by the ascender. And if trained properly and you are fit, it's not that exhausting.
But practically, if you have 6-8 raps in a canyon, you (someone) are going to have to pack and carry back up all of them,except the first rap, which you can pull up after you finish. And with extra weight and some tricky up climbs, exhaustion can be factor. I would never go up a canyon moving prussic; long ago used rope man, and other "small devices". And have used handled ascender (wrist and arm get sore on long ups). I know what exhaustion is about in canyons. That's why WE researched and then changed "the full process."
Or you set ropes (elsewhere) and after descending, you ascend at spot A where fixed ropes are set. Still in this circumstance someone has to pack and carry back up a (200ft. rope for example) when you are ascending.
Add 6 - 8- 12-15 - 18 pounds of dry/wet rope, or a wet wetsuit for an ascent and the game really changes - and if one does not have an efficient practiced method it can be exhausting and in some cases dangerous if folk suffer extreme fatigue (I've seen it happen); originally with a climbing harness, I experienced extreme exhaustion, going up Middle Oak twice in an afternoon. Down once to set ropes, back up, then down XYZ canyon and then back up Middle Oak. ouch, ouch, ouch!
Ropes; all ropes are not created equal, particularly when it comes to ascending; and some ropes when wet are OK and/or bad. And often on many raps, rope protectors need/have to be set up at the rap station and in in some cases slings or small ladders set out for when one comes up. Folk that go into canyons and plan to ascend and don't have the right ropes or protectors can potentially get into big trouble. If a rope is wet and it see saws up and down on a ledge as one ascends, it can quickly come apart.
Gear, methods. Cavers, rock climbers are the predominant crowd involved with descending and ascending. And in both cases, methods and gear often differ. Serious cavers in S America (Mexico) may go thousands of feet down, they often use chest "boxes" and often have both feet in stirrups and have a most efficient and safe ascending process. In American canyons the frog, modified frog, Texas style and whatever style are used by cavers; serious ones often use boxes, chest harnesses, full dry suits or "suits" and then a variety of stirrups. Climbers have a multitude of different styles depending on circumstances and needs.
Once again if you are just pulling yourself up, with no extra gear, then that is one thing. If you carry heavy ropes and for example a wet, wetsuit, that is another. Going back up Middle Oak, where a guide is setting and pulling the ropes and "guests" are taking themselves back up, well some/many have done that, without much problem. If though, 10-15 lbs of weight is been added to their tow, the game would have been different.
In normal (going down) canyons, I carry a system that I can go back up (in an emergency), using a climbing harness (what I use in technical canyons). A ladder for a foot loop, a Petzl Basic and a Croll plus slings, I can arguably set the system up for "most" sized people on the spot.
In down and up canyons, 300-60 ft. it's an XYZ stirrup, a caving harness (low attach point), chest strap and Croll and then a Petzl Basic that attaches to the foot stirrup.I can put either had on the Basic and use the full arm in the up mode. Most of the time ONE foot is placed in the stirrup and the other leg/foot bounces on walls; on big ups with walls, a Petzl XYZ attaches to the "other" shoe/boot (not in the stirrup); this does not work though in the free hangs.
Finally: I'd not do an ascent canyon with anyone that has not practiced the process on a big tree and on a wall in a canyon. Some people are not built physically or emotionally to do the process. Please, trying to be kind here. If folk are not trained properly and practiced, exhaustion can be a tipping point. It's simply not fair to some folk.
And be careful about attracting people into some corridors. It may be dry and semi-easy one day, and wet another, or impediments may arise one day and not another. And the rope you planned on using in ascending falls apart or was not protected properly. Some ups are easier for a shorter person, more difficult for a normal sized or larger person. Some people always "take" small packs and will never assist in carrying ropes back up; cold water canyons, coming back up, the risks and rewards. Once again, practice, learn methods (muscle memory) an art, rope protectors, tools, devices, the correct type of ropes. And all the years we did it, big effort to keep it off the radar. But then lips move, even mine......at times....
