Wetsuits and neoprene

Hi all,

Two questions about wetsuits for you more experienced canyoneers.

I got a heavily discounted new one but then realised it was 3mm when I believe most water canyons that don't see sunlight need 4mm for spring or fall.
I have like a neoprene long sleeve vest/shirt that I could wear under the wetsuit. But my understanding is that wetsuits work by trapping water next to your skin and body heat warms that trapped water.
Obviously when being anywhere that doesn't involve water, wearing layers layers is advised for warmth.
But I wasn't sure if that works with 2 neoprene layers, as water between the inner and outer layer isn't in contact with your body? (Perhaps is it even
counterproductive if the 2nd layer water conducts heat away). Or would the vest make me as warm as a 4mm wetsuit

Secondly, if I'm right that the heat comes from the body warming water that stays trapped, does tearing holes in boots' toes - as I always get - hugely reduce their effectiveness as water can then continually escape while being warmed, and would keep getting replaced by cold water conducting heat away from your feet. They're not uncomfortable, but wondered if I need to keep spending on replacements

The layer works best if you can wear it under the main suit, it's not quite as effective as a thicker suit but it's better than nothing. As for the holes in the new socks, how effective they will be depends in large part on the type of shoe you're wearing. If the shoe doesn't drain very fast then having holes is less of an issue.

I have 4mm vest and also some 4mm shorts. I stack accordingly. The vest is nice because it comes on and off easily while in the canyon based on conditions

I did have FiveTen boots, but then when Adidas bought them out I've got a pair of those newer Adidas boots - can't remember what they're called without digging them out but some Springdale firm rents them out . I guess they're designed to let water out so maybe I should keep buying new socks.

By the way,, does anyone else get this problem or know what I'm doing wrong as I had no email of these replies or even notification or alerts when I logged in, even though I've checked my settings and have clicked for instant notification to threads I've started or commented on. Makes me wonder how many other replies I've never spotted and maybe helpful people think I'm pretty rude!

I have worn a 3mm over the top of a 1mm shorty and it worked just fine, though it was pretty snug. I now have a thin polyolefin shirt that I can wear under my 3mm wetsuit when I think I need a little more warmth. This is a lot easier for me since I can take it off if I am overheating. If that isn't enough I will go up to my 5mm suit.

Also I just have to add that for me at least, a 3mm suit works for the majority of the canyons I do even in spring and fall, but I do run a little warmer than average.

I recommend starting with the wetsuit that you are going to need, then not worrying about layering. If you bought the wrong wetsuit, then just sell it on eBay and start from scratch. I use a 3/2 for warmish stuff, and a 4/3 for coldish stuff. The next time I do Heaps or Kolob, I'll use a 5mm.

The Zion Adventure 5mm neo socks are warm and plus they are tougher than heck. However, the seams chew up my feet, so I rarely wear them.

I'm currently loving the Lavacore socks which are roughly equivalent to 2mm of neo, plus they are very comfortable. I've only done a few canyons in them, so I'm not sure how durable they are yet. My wife and I did Heaps in them without any issue.

Which canyons are you preparing for?

[QUOTE= I'm currently loving the Lavacore socks which are roughly equivalent to 2mm of neo, plus they are very comfortable. I've only done a few canyons in them, so I'm not sure how durable they are yet. My wife and I did Heaps in them without any issue.

Which canyons are you preparing for?[/QUOTE]

Well, I want it to last for a few years for almost any canyon as I can't go very often, but initially probably some Lake Powell ones in April (not sure yet which), plus maybe one or 2 around Zion. Is your wife experienced? Two experienced people offered to take me to Heaps, but I'm not experienced having probably done no more than 30 rappels in my life,and I know it's a tough one, but I wondered if I could do it if i was with experienced people

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaniukr

Well, I want it to last for a few years for almost any canyon as I can't go very often, but initially probably some Lake Powell ones in April (not sure yet which), plus maybe one or 2 around Zion. Is your wife experienced? Two experienced people offered to take me to Heaps, but I'm not experienced having probably done no more than 30 rappels in my life,and I know it's a tough one, but I wondered if I could do it if i was with experienced people

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I'd probably go with a 4/3 and unzip the back if you get hot. Throw in some Lavacore socks and you will be set for most canyons.

My wife has done many canyons, and she is quite good (incredible in skinny canyons), but experience is relative. We went through Heaps with Tom Jones @ratagonia , who has done Heaps so many times that he has lost count, and Tom Collins @TommyBoy , who has done Heaps six times. They have done A LOT of canyons. I'd label Tom and Tom as experienced.

I'd recommend doing a bunch of Zion canyons before trying Heaps, in particular Imlay Sneak, which is about half as much work as Heaps. You will enjoy Heaps more when you can move fluidly through that place. Also, I would go in the fall when the potholes are full and the water is warmer. I've heard bad stories about doing Heaps in the spring (very cold, very slow).

I don't think Zion comes into season until June. It is too cold and too empty in the spring. YMMV.

I would also recommend a 4/3. The new hyperflex ones are super comfortable. Done Imlay and Heaps in a 4/3 and was comfortable the whole time. I use the 5mm neosport socks for all wet canyons with no rubbing or issues

I actually just ordered a new suit and socks

http://www.store.canyoneeringusa.com...tegory=2490770

http://www.store.canyoneeringusa.com...tegory=2490773

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

I'd probably go with a 4/3 and unzip the back if you get hot. Throw in some Lavacore socks and you will be set for most canyons.

My wife has done many canyons, and she is quite good (incredible in skinny canyons), but experience is relative. We went through Heaps with Tom Jones @ratagonia , who has done Heaps so many times that he has lost count, and Tom Collins @TommyBoy , who has done Heaps six times. They have done A LOT of canyons. I'd label Tom and Tom as experienced.

I'd recommend doing a bunch of Zion canyons before trying Heaps, in particular Imlay Sneak, which is about half as much work as Heaps. You will enjoy Heaps more when you can move fluidly through that place. Also, I would go in the fall when the potholes are full and the water is warmer. I've heard bad stories about doing Heaps in the spring (very cold, very slow).

I don't think Zion comes into season until June. It is too cold and too empty in the spring. YMMV.

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I concur.

hopefully, Ross, you have read this: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/...nical/preface/

Tom

Thanks Tom. Previously I had always totally ruled it out as well beyond me, even if I could go with people who had done it before - it was only after several spoke about it as one of THE very most beautiful canyons and then a couple of people started mentioning maybe going if conditions were favourable despite knowing my limitations that I did vaguely consider it. But your website I think confirms not a good idea.

And sounds like I would have become one of those "daft people" we spoke about if I'd tried it in late April !!

It's a bit of a race against time in my case between losing fitness and advancing years and gaining more experience!

I also presume hiking lower Kolob by just ENTERING by the MIA route and exiting through the Narrows isn't "on average years" likely until June because of too high earlier snowmelt flow and extreme cold? Maybe some years its best to wait til July for better odds of under 100cfs & a 3 or 4mm wetsuit? The NPS don't seem to have a historical averages graph for all Spring &' hard to find on USGS



(Just re-visited what made me re-evaluate my desire to see Heaps - Dan Ransom's rave report on canyoneeringusa. His feeling that canyoneering is for him primarily a means to an end of seeing the most beautiful places is similar to how I feel, and strangely, like him, despite other people absolutely raving about Heaps' beauty, all pics & videos of Heaps seemed to make it look very nice, but no nicer than many others and not so, so special - he thought that too - that's until friends made him go and he then rated it one of the very best.
Maybe its the darkness that means photos don't do it justice, because photos of most canyons I've seen have been pretty accurate indicators of their scenic rating. Occasionally I've seen others' great photos that even made me go "wow" more than the real thing as the light was better, for example arguably some pictures of Pine Creek's cathedral)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaniukr

I also presume hiking lower Kolob by just ENTERING by the MIA route and exiting through the Narrows isn't "on average years" likely until June because of too high earlier snowmelt flow and extreme cold? Maybe some years its best to wait til July for better odds of under 100cfs & a 3 or 4mm wetsuit? The NPS don't seem to have a historical averages graph for all Spring &' hard to find on USGS



(Just re-visited what made me re-evaluate my desire to see Heaps - Dan Ransom's rave report on canyoneeringusa. His feeling that canyoneering is for him primarily a means to an end of seeing the most beautiful places is similar to how I feel, and strangely, like him, despite other people absolutely raving about Heaps' beauty, all pics & videos of Heaps seemed to make it look very nice, but no nicer than many others and not so, so special - he thought that too - that's until friends made him go and he then rated it one of the very best.
Maybe its the darkness that means photos don't do it justice, because photos of most canyons I've seen have been pretty accurate indicators of their scenic rating. Occasionally I've seen others' great photos that even made me go "wow" more than the real thing as the light was better, for example arguably some pictures of Pine Creek's cathedral)

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There are two reasons the photo database of Heaps is unimpressive:

A. It's dark.

B. People are busy.

Tom

With all the pictures I have taken canyoneering I find it very rare to capture the true beauty of canyoneering. You can't capture exhaustion, sweat, cold water flowing over your skin, or the sensation of looking down a 300 foot rappel. Some things you cannot see but only experience.

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http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/m...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by DakotaBelliston
You can't capture exhaustion, sweat, cold water flowing over your skin, or the sensation of looking down a 300 foot rappel. Some things you cannot see but only experience."

I can't imagine you ever getting exhausted Dakota! What must the weakest in the group have been feeling like.

Yes, I can certainly see the physical challenge fun & I guess for some the mental challenge of cleverly thinking of a way to overcome obstacles confronting you. But (and only speaking for myself) when location/time/cost unfortunately limit your opportunities (as well as capability), the additional criterion is what will they look like. Just walking down one of the first I saw, Wire Pass, had me in awe that such narrow cracks existed.

(As Tom said, Heaps seems relentless, so i'm surprised people do take as many photos as there are out there - plus with all that water and swimming it's hard, messy, & time-consuming to be digging out cameras, unless it's a waterproof one you can wear like a GoPro

I have a Heaps permit in June. I'm still working on the group part but if my trip happens I promise I will try to capture the awesomeness lol.

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Just back on wetsuits - I just looked & there's lots selling on eBay.

Presumably ones described as scuba wetsuits are fine as I guess that's what most are for?

Is there much difference in weight between different brands for the same thickness?

Anyone have a rough idea on how much more a wetsuit weighs for each extra mm of thickness, as weight is an issue not only for carrying in dry parts of canyons, but also for airlines with just a 21kg hold baggage allowance on international flights with 2 weeks' vacation gear.

Is there anything else I should be aware of or look out for when looking for a wetsuit for canyoneering as I guess there's many types and many brands?

Thanks in advance for any advice. Ross

Ross, many airlines allow a free extra bag for "sporting equipment" when crossing the pond (Virgin Atlantic for example, but check your airline's policy).

Rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaniukr

Just back on wetsuits - I just looked & there's lots selling on eBay.

Presumably ones described as scuba wetsuits are fine as I guess that's what most are for?

Is there much difference in weight between different brands for the same thickness?

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You'll need to research this to be sure, but I think I read somewhere that scuba wetsuits have fewer air bubbles in them since they will compress as you dive thus reducing the efficiency of the suit. This would lead me to believe that scuba suits are heavier for the same thickness. I haven't actually done any followup research though. I know what suit I like and works for me so I haven't looked much further.