Looks like it’s going to pass.
https://i.giphy.com/media/hkRkIzk0F1tv2/giphy.gif
https://i975-photobucket-com.cdn.amp...5/001103x8.gif
Printable View
Looks like it’s going to pass.
https://i.giphy.com/media/hkRkIzk0F1tv2/giphy.gif
https://i975-photobucket-com.cdn.amp...5/001103x8.gif
I read that the results were heavily in favor in Salt Lake and Weber counties, but heavily opposed in Davis and Utah counties. No surprise there ~ with the heavy LDS population and the diligent efforts the church invested in last minute campaigning against it.
I was questioning why the church was so diligent at campaigning at the last second even after all parties had to agreed to hold off on campaigning either for or against after that compromise with the Gov was struck. :ne_nau:
Guess it doesn't really matter now.
Because if it failed there is no chance in hell they would have actually done anything about it. This forces their hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockgremlin
"I know this Church is True, Joseph Smith was a prophet and it's better to stick with Prozac, Xanax and Opiods over something that comes from the earth."Quote:
Originally Posted by uintafly
And just like that, the Mormons weren't as oppressively controlling as people said they were.
lol. You really are interested in how people view the Mormons. Is there a thread on here where you haven't brought up the poor picked on Mormons?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
Funny, I only reply to prior comments about the Mormons.Quote:
Originally Posted by uintafly
Are you conflicted now that it passed, but the Mormons are supposed to be super controlling?
What now?
lol, yes I am super conflicted. What will I ever do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
For some reason, though I don't have any ill will toward the Mormon Church or Mormons in general, you still love to play the "he's picking on me" card. Oh and the church can still be considered "super controlling" and the prop can pass. I would bet if you looked at the stats, had only Mormons voted, it would have went down in flames. And the church did come out loud and often in opposition, so to somehow try to spin this as the church isn't controlling is a bit of a stretch.
I am Mormon.... just a terrible one. I like to pick on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by uintafly
Quote:
Originally Posted by uintafly
This is exactly my point. The church breached the "silent agreement" that all parties agreed to by coming out in the eleventh hour in strong opposition to Prop 2 here:
https://www.ksl.com/article/46419486...hns-to-vote-no
That one was a bit of a head-scratcher...everybody else agreed to maintain silence as per the agreements laid out in the compromise with the Governor. Why did the church feel they needed to renege on that in a last ditch message in opposition? It just looks desperate.
So, is it not a valid point that this proposition passed with ease, despite all of the talk of the monopolistic oppression from the LDS Church?
I thought it was a valid point. 3 mentions of the church in opposition and I'm the one that gets called out for my 1 comment? OK I guess, I know it's fun to complain about the super oppressive nazi Mormon church, but you shouldn't get so upset that once in a while somebody might have the balls to give a proper rebuttal with facts.
If Prop 2 passed in Utah, all of your comments about the super controlling Mormon church are complete bullshit.
I don't care either way, but whenever I read something posted here that doesn't make sense, I like to give some educational feedback.
Cheers.
Like it never happenedhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...eebe5eab0d.jpg
That's not necessarily true, a majority of Mormon's were in favor of Prop 2 before the Church came out against it. It went from roughly 77% down to 55% in approval once their opposition was voiced. Surely many Mormon's went against the Church's opposition and voted for it. That doesn't mean the Church isn't super controlling, just possibly losing its control on membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
Just because Prop 2 passed doesn't mean the church isn't controlling.
As I stated earlier, and which I'll repeat here, the church broke a previously agreed to silence to aggressively campaign against Prop 2 in the eleventh hour, just days before the election. Why would they do that? Nobody else had a problem holding their tongue.
As Uintah stated, if it were up to strictly the church members the Prop would have failed miserably. Heck, it failed miserably in Utah and Davis counties -- what does that tell you?
The LDS church came out at the last minute against marijuana in hope of torpedoing the idea completely... plain and simple.
but hey if I suggest the other side of the argument, @uintafly is gonna call me out on it.
4 arguments countering the LDS church's stance, and 1 stating the LDS isn't as controlling as accused, and I'm the one called out on it. Hilarious.
Funny, I've never felt controlled. And I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
No what's hilarious is that you can't see the plain truth even when it's dangled in front of you 4 different ways. Sometimes ya gotta just embrace that the other side MIGHT just have a point.
The LDS church controls politics here in Utah. So what? Everybody knows that. If you argue differently you've gotta be deluded.
I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. The church was here first, I think there's a certain expectation that they are going to maintain a controlling voice in all affairs here. Quit assigning the negative label. I'm not saying it's bad, but it definitely does exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
That's because you don't drink alcohol, and aren't a cancer patient on chemo. If you were either of those you might have a different opinion.
LOL.... the Church issues opinions and statements. People choose to follow or not.
As for me Rock, I embrace "the other side" on a daily basis. I am an attorney who considers both sides of arguments every working day of my life. If I didn't, I would have been ousted from my profession long ago.
Rock, you forget that I represent a CBD company. My daughter has chronic pain. I am a fan of CBD, not THC. Oh, trust me. I have been all over this issue. I stated that in another thread.
Or had a gay child.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockgremlin
Sombeech, I am too lazy to search, but you often bring up LDS complaints as a complete non sequitur. One example off the top of my head was last week when I called out the fake craigslist ad looking for Obama supporters. It's not a big deal, you just happen to be real sensitive, lots of people are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
This is true.... but... we both know a large number of people that take any opinion or statement the LDS church gives as meaning it came directly from God, to the prophet, to them....
The other side of that is the LDS church also teaches free agency.... but for better or worse a large number of people, both in and out of the church, fail to think for themselves and would rather be told what to think.
Anyhoo... bottom line.... the LDS church has a massive influence in Utah and on Utah politics. Anyone that denies that fact is fooling themselves.
YMMV
I agree the church has a large political influence in this state when it issues statements. The word "controlling" doesn't sit well with me. That word, frankly goes against everything I know and love about the Church, of which I am a member.
It sounds like you can't counter the points I make so you just mention that I make them often.Quote:
Originally Posted by uintafly
I'm ok with that, but I'd rather hear your opposing point of view.
Here is the road map to how Prop 2 will be torpedoed...
Here’s how and why the Legislature could change Proposition 2 — even if it passes
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=46422829&nid=968
Climb-Utah.com
Yes, the church obviously has a major part to play in politics in Utah. I also agree with Scott that I hate the idea of them controlling what I do and think. If I'm honest, it bothered me to receive an email from them telling me how I should vote. That was a line that I didn't think they'd cross, but they did. It felt weird to me.
To all those who voted against Prop 2 -- please read the following question with an open mind - I'm sincerely not trying to be obnoxious or snarky:
What is so "bad" about recreational MJ? Most folks who voted to axe Prop 2 claimed that "it would open the door to recreational use."
So? Why is that so bad?
You folks do know that MJ is everywhere right now, right? I'll bet there are at least a half dozen folks who live within a mile radius of your house who possess (or have possessed) MJ and have probably even lit up once or twice recently. IT IS EVERYWHERE.
Prop 2 isn't proposing to import MJ into the State of Utah once it has passed -- MJ is already here in massive quantities. People are just so deep in denial they refuse to acknowledge that. So, since it's already here, and it's so ubiquitous, why not profit from it? Because the only folks who profit from it when it's illegal are drug dealers and Mexican cartels. Is that what you'd prefer? To pad the pockets of the drug cartels?
^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by rockgremlin
My 98 year old devout Mormon Grandmother believes in legalization cause she knows it's everywhere and controlling, dispensing and advising people on variety is far more safe and we, as a State, reap the financial benefit. She passed about 8 years ago and couldn't see so she'd just listen to talk radio and was very informed on issues. She was most adamant about legalization feeling it would solve a lot of the ripple effect social problems of MJ being illegal.
What opposing point of view? That the LDS church is controlling? Maybe you tell me how an institution that tells its members the following couldn't be considered controlling: how to dress, what to eat and drink, how many and where they can get piercings and tattoos, how to vote, what gender you can bang, whether kids can masturbate, have the byu honor code, what you can do on Sunday, etc. etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
I'm probably coming off as a bit of a dick, though I am not trying to. I don't personally believe in the theology and the culture and rules are certainly not for me, but if it's for others, great. Do what makes you happy. But I don't see how anyone could say the LDS church(and a whole hell of a lot of other religions) isn't controlling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockgremlin
X2.
Also, I think many people would be truly shocked to learn how many educated, highly successful people that you know, occasionally partake. I prefer a few beers personally and am not a fan of playing legal roulette with pot being illegal, but off the top of my head I personally know of business owners, engineers, lawyers, architects, financial planners, r/e agents and a Dr among others that smoke. I do know some real losers that smoke too, but that goes with pretty much everything.
That's odd, I never received an email. Who did it come from? What did it say?Quote:
Originally Posted by devo_stevo
What a silly critique!!! Sombeech expresses a valid opinion in what he thinks is true, and he gets mocked for it?? uintafly must be a liberal. Name calling is the argument of the child/liberal. But this is the internet. There are trolls and liberal "logic" everywhere you look. If you're going to be a part of the psuedo-public arena, you've got to be able to handle criticism. I'm just surprised how silly this particular criticism is.Quote:
Originally Posted by uintafly
Nah, he must be getting irritated that there's somebody sticking up for the Mormons. It would piss me off too if I hated them.Quote:
Originally Posted by qedcook
It came from the church. Written by the president of the Utah area. It basically said that they're cool with the idea of medical marijuana, but not the bill as proposed. I'm cool with that statement. What I didn't really like was the line where they said in bold type "As a member of the coalition, we urge voters of Utah to vote NO on Proposition 2."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
Here's the email. I received it on 8-23.
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
In November, Proposition 2, an initiative which would legalize the sale and use of marijuana, will appear on the ballot. Its proponents assert that it will make medical marijuana available to those suffering with debilitating pain and other infirmities. However, in truth it goes much further, creating a serious threat to health and public safety, especially for our youth and young adults, by making marijuana generally available with few controls.
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
The Church joins a coalition of medical experts, public officials, and community stakeholders in calling for a safe and compassionate approach to providing medical marijuana to those in need. The Church does not object to the medicinal use of marijuana, if doctor prescribed, in dosage form, through a licensed pharmacy.
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
As a member of the coalition, we urge voters of Utah to vote NO on Proposition 2, and join us in a call to state elected officials to promptly work with medical experts, patients, and community leaders to find a solution that will work for all Utahns, without the harmful effects that will come to pass if Proposition 2 becomes law.
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
For more information on Proposition 2 please refer to this legal analysis prepared for the Church by Kirton McConkie.
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...ure_082318.jpg
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
Elder Craig C. Christensen
President, Utah Areahttp://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif Statement on Proposition 2
Medical Marijuana Initiative
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gifMedical marijuana is an issue that has generated strong emotions and opinions among proponents and opponents alike. On one hand, initiatives to legalize marijuana in other states have led to increased drug use among youth, higher risk of impaired driving, and an increase in hospital emergency room visits, among other significant public health and safety concerns. On the other hand, patients suffering from debilitating pain and other medical conditions have struggled as traditional treatment strategies have failed to provide relief. The marijuana initiative appearing as Proposition 2 on the ballot this November does not strike the appropriate balance in ensuring safe and reasonable access for patients while also protecting youth and preventing other societal harms.
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
We are firmly opposed to Proposition 2. However, we do not object to marijuana derivatives being used in medicinal form—so long as appropriate controls and safeguards are in place to ensure vulnerable populations are protected and access is limited to truly medicinal purposes. Moreover, though continued research into the risks and benefits of medical marijuana use remains paramount, current scientific evidence suggests marijuana contains components that may be of benefit to some patients.
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
We urge the voters of Utah to vote no on Proposition 2. We also urge lawmakers, patients, and community stakeholders to work together to find a solution that works for all Utahns. The hallmarks of Utah’s unique policy accomplishments in the past have been civility, compassion, and a spirit of compromise, and we are confident an approach guided by these principles will yield similarly effective policies.
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
Sincerely,
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
Utah Medical Association
Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Utah Episcopal Diocese
Utah Hospital Association
Utah PTA
Fraternal Order of Police
Family Policy Resource
Utah Narcotics Officers Association
Islamic Society of Greater Salt Lake
Latinos in Action
Utah Sheriff's Association
Salt Lake City Police Association
Sutherland Institute
Utah Hispanic Chamber of Commerce
Utah Eagle Forum
Utah Society of Anesthesiologists
Family First Foundation
Meridian Magazine
Newquist Group
Citizens for Strong Families
American College of Emergency Physicians, Utah Chapter
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
Wayne Niederhauser—Utah Senate President
Greg Hughes—Speaker of the Utah House
Scott Anderson—President and CEO, Zions Bank
Gail Miller—Owner & Chair of the LHM Group of Companies
Karen Huntsman
Mike Leavitt—Former Governor, Secretary of HHS
David Huntsman, President, Huntsman Foundation
Mitt Romney—Former U.S. Presidential Candidate
Jim Jardine—Lawyer, Education Leader
Kem Gardner—Chairman, Gardner Company
Dave Mallinak, Pastor, Berean Baptism Church, Ogden
Steve Starks—President, Utah Jazz, and LHM Sports & Entertainment
Spencer P. Eccles—Former Exec. Dir. Governor's Office of Economic Development
Nathan Frodsham—Patient Advocate
Aimee Winder Newton—Chair Salt Lake County Council
Kim R. Wilson—Attorney
Enedina Stanger—Patient Advocate
Walt Plumb—Developer
Derek Miller—President and CEO, Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce
Todd Moon—Patient Advocate
Rev. Gregory Johnson, President of Standing Together
Carlton Christensen—Former Salt Lake City Council Member
Karen Hale—Former Utah State Senator
Mike Kennedy—MD
Ed Kennedy—President, Truth about Prop. 2
Jennifer Brown, DDS—Dentist
http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
*"There are a significant number of Utah elected officials and others running for office this year, who have signed the statement. We have chosen not to include their names here."http://image.email.ldschurch.org/lib...LDS_Spacer.gif
I see. I must not be on that email list lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by devo_stevo
Yeah that seems like a strong suggestion, but in the end there will be no retaliation against the members that did vote for Prop 2. They can urge us to vote a certain way just like they can urge to go to church on Sundays.
But we can see that in the end, the choice is up to us and we would receive zero punishment for voting a certain way. No shunning, no shaming, no special invitation to the bishops office, no banning, no whatever. We truly are allowed to make our own decisions, and they are truly allowed to urge us to vote a certain way without consequences.
It might look like overreaching, but I'm getting suggestions and advice on something every single Sunday, so it is what it is.
And yet, there's still not one person that knows which way I voted ;)
Why does this bother you so much? Every organization has "rules". My profession has rules and requirements to get in, a dress code, a conduct/ethics code, and a continuing behavior and education code. To be a lawyer I had to go to college, law school and pass the bar. I have to wear a suit and tie in court or risk contempt. If I commit certain crimes I lose my license. I have to attend so many hours of continuing legal education. So tell me again why an organizations rules are so offensive to you if you don't believe in the theology and culture and rules? You voluntarily join organizations. You voluntarily stay with organizations. You can leave the organization anytime you wish. If you get kicked out due to rules, well, yup, they have rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by uintafly
So what if the church renders an opinion on an issue before the voters. Freedom of thought and speech are the fundamental rights that make this country great and from which every other right flows. All of this hate and animosity towards others, their opinions, and their organization is what is making America less great.
So true, the high minded conservatives are above such low brow humor as name calling and mocking. Only the snowflake libtards in their safespaces while collecting participation trophies and living off welfare in their moms basement would stoop so low as to generalize and mock! Conservatives have risen above it all, led my Mr. respectful himself, Donald J. Trump! Though I am confused, your post seems to have some name calling in it, so does that make you a liberal?Quote:
Originally Posted by qedcook
Very true. I haven't had the bishop ask me which way I voted and I don't expect that to happen either. I just thought it was strange that they actually came out and suggested that we vote in a certain direction. Typically, it's more of a suggestion to study out the subject and vote according to your conscience as to what you think is right. That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Card
Please for the love of God point out where I have ever said I hate Mormons??? Or even where I said their rules were "offensive" to me? It sure would be a surprise to many of my close friends and family that I secretly hate them all. Just pointing out that the LDS church is controlling (an opinion that is shared by a lot of members and non members alike btw) does not constitute me hating the Mormons. Since when does stating what many believe is a valid criticism of a group constitute "hate and animosity". It's absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech