http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1nx...ature=youtu.be
First view of the CRITR prototype in use.
Production units soon at http://canyonwerks.com
and yeah... I am a Go pro newbie
Printable View
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1nx...ature=youtu.be
First view of the CRITR prototype in use.
Production units soon at http://canyonwerks.com
and yeah... I am a Go pro newbie
Nice, lots of friction options. I hope this works out...
Hole looks pretty small...will this work double strand or is it only designed for single?
Attachment 72253
Good question Sandstone--the CRITR top hole is smaller than the Pirana but a little larger than the ATS. Double rope rappels run great!
Also the CRITR has larger edge radius than the ATS so double rope rappels are smoother on CRITR.
I was just going to make my own comparison with pics like that! Glad to see that you beat me to it! :)
So exactly what can the CRITR do that the ATS can't?
Hey Kuya!
What the CRITR CAN do that the the ATS and Pirana CAN'T:
SAVE YOUR HINEY! when you are a big person and/or choose the wrong (too low) a friction setting and step off the edge of the big drop.
Many of us (most of us?) have had this happen at some point- we get surprised by that shiny new skinny rope or didn't realize the rap is overhung... and it AIN'T PRETTY!
with the CRITR you can add variable friction on the fly- safely- without betting control of the rappel (and your life) trying to hook the rope around tiny fish hooks, or 'hyper-nubbs'
The CRITR does not twist the rope
The CRITR is symmetrical / reversible so wears much longer
Interesting. I don't own either a Piranha or a ATS, so I don't have much bias. But when I look at the ATS and the Criter the only thing that I see that is significantly different is the number of slots. The ATS has 2 and the CRITR has 1. I guess the CRITR does have a better ability to weave a rope around the horns, but other than that, im not seeing much of a seperation.Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
i will agree though, it is super nice being able to add friction by wrapping the rope around a horn that is located at the bottom of the device. my Totem can't do that, A few weeks ago, on a 100' free hanging rap, i was really wishing for that!
http://youtu.be/DWc0IjQiJs0
Arrgghhh..I flubbed the audio? Any way- this is a demo of the CRITR on the LOWEST initial friction setting with 2 wraps thrown on "after the fact" and rappelling with me (150 lbs)
plus 200 lbs of lead shot in weight bags hung from the device also.
Yupp, that's 350 lbs.
Try THAT on the lowest setting for the ATS and a brand new single line Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3mm (shown in video)
Good lookin' device.
Bet it works like a champ.
How can I acquire one?
You answered one of my questions here about rope twist, but those "horns" are rather pronounced. I would think there could be problems in certain scenarios where the sharp horns could hang you up on a protrusion or small ledge while beginning a rappel. Has there been any field testing that has indicated a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
I do like the ease with which friction can be added and you can completely tie yourself off.
Thank you very much for your interest!
we will be anodizing the new CRITRs, lazer marking them, then selling them thru select shops and online at canyonwerks.com in about 3-4 weeks
Good question about the arms and legs-
We have used the CRITR on numerous awkward starts and pot hole lips and it seems to perform well! (with at least as much grace as other devices). The 'add friction' modes are very stable while weighted and the initial friction will never skip off because of the pronounced legs.
When bushwhacking it is a good idea to clip the CRITR to the side gear loop of your harness to help keep from snagging, again, same story as for other devices of similair size.
The little paws on the ends of the arms help a bit (thanks Hank!)
Two years in the making, I designed the CRITR to keep my Wife safe on rappel: now, with proper training with the CRITR, everyone can use modern, light weight, skinny ropes with complete control.
If you check out the video clip you will see that two wraps on the CRITR was almost too much friction for the weight of 350 lbs!
I had to goose it a little to get started- and that is on one of the faster skinny ropes: the imlay canyon fire 8.3mm (love that rope!)
Todd
How many have you test broke and what was the average kn at break?
What will you be rating these at, kn wise?
This is great ^^^^^^^^,Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
any plans for stainless steel in the future ?
I've been in that same situation and agree with you 100%. It can be scary to bring the rope up out of that friction setting in order to add more, that's for sure. Although with some practice, I've gotten better with it. I think that situation would have been a lot less scary with something like the CRITR. Also great to eliminate rope twist..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuya
Correct me if wrong? By virtue of the way an ATS, Pirana and Critr are rigged, the majority of force should be seen on the spine of the carabiner? I have yet to see a "kn" rating on an ATS or Pirana? Still would be nice to see where the resultant force on the device shows a weak point?Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
Thanks for questions and comments.
YES: let the CRITR testing begin!
We are planning to use the UIAA protocol and place a static load (of 7 kn) on the rigged CRITR in all the different friction modes. Probably repeating the whole test with 2 different rope diameters (maybe 8mm bluewater and 10mm Imlay Canyoneero).
After that we'll all be bored so DESTRUCTIVE TESTING:naughty: will begin.
When pulling the CRITR to failure in the UIAA set up (and lock-off mode) what breaks first: Biner, Rope, or CRITR? And a what level of force applied (kn)?
We will post results!
Bo is right of course- most of the load with a CRITR style device is carried by the carabiner, BUT we still want to know!!! (and see parts flying thru the air)
Did a bunch of fiddling with stainless as a material but there are issues:
Weight. Weight. Weight. Price. Price. Price
Shrinking the stainless part to save weight reduces all the radius's and messes with the rope path.
By the time you shave stainless steel thicknesses to a reasonable weight, the longevity of the part (in sandy canyons) is not that much better than aluminum.
To help offset the wear issue the CRITR is reversible (and beefed up in in wear areas) to try to double the life-span over other devices.
I've used the two on the left before; be interesting to see how the Critr compares.Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
Imlay Canyonero is 9.2mm, rather than 10mm. Nonetheless, an interesting new rappel device. Looking forward to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
Thank you for the correction!
The Canyonero is a popular, sturdy canyon rope and I happen to have an unused new piece so it seemed like test subject material.
cool idea, looking forward to your further testing and use.
I think a lot can be learned about a prototype by breaking them in various configurations,
such as what is the weakest link in the system, where will a CRITR fail when stressed beyond reasonable application,
what is the strongest aluminum for this device,etc.
Most likely to break far in excess of it's intended use but as a user, it would be comforting to know this information prior to use.
We like knowing "all" our gear, far exceeds any real world punishment we can dish out.
If it was mine--I would do a test using 200lbs+/- and see how long it takes to wear through a "leg" in various friction reducing scenarios,
since it would appear that large frame(us fat) canyoneers are a part of your target group.:mrgreen:
Hey Oldno7!
have always admired the truth of your byline:
"guns don't kill people, static ropes do" !!!
Ha! (belongs on a product warning somewhere....)
Yes, big people ARE the target group for the CRITR- having been kind of left out by the current crop.
Like you, we like to know where the weakest link(s) are-
best way to make stuff stronger.
Will start breaking soon.
Seems that nice friction could be created by snaking the rope thru the hooks?
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Exactly!
Will post first draft of instructions for CRITR , soon.
Thanks
Let's pass on instructions and get right to selling them:)
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
We are of like mind! Writing instructions is even worse (way slower) than reading them.
Desi and I went thru Mud Springs canyon Sunday with a buddy- his first time on the CRITR.
Because it was not anodized, made him promise in the morning to give it back at the end of the day.
He never gave it back- a good sign we think:haha:
When you start selling them. Make sure you have yourself well protected with a LLC.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
I'm surprised that you went ahead and made so many before you had conducted any testing. Seems a bit hasty to me. I don't see any glaring flaws with your device but I realized early on after running a test batch of my product that R&D is a time consuming and complicated process made even more so by potential legal pitfalls and the complicated logistics of a small budget. Hence the indefinite shelving of my project. If I do revisit the concept, it will be for my personal consumption and will only stand a chance at production after seasons of use and testing by myself.
Another reason for my current dismissal is the semblance that the updated version of my device bears to the CRITR. As I was at the drawing board for the revision of my device, the advent of the CRITR gave me more reason to abandon my project for the time being. If someone else wants to undertake a project and assume the liability of such a similar device, they can carry that torch as far as I'm concerned.
Well done and best of luck. I may even buy one.
Attachment 72286
Hi Bootboy- thanks for your post!
The Testing we are doing now is of the 'due diligence' type (batch testing the run for conformance).
We have been breaking samples (and canyoneering with) the specific CRITR prototypes for over five months now (and another year and a half before that with other rappel device designs).
Man, are you right about the complicated R&D process/ legal pitfalls/ budget!!! Luke at Buugnome is up against the same hurdles.
Advice to all fellow 'garage' inventors: don't quit your day job!
There are a couple of advantages we have had since our 'day job' company already manufactures safety equipment. So we have had access to a small machine shop, load testing equipment, and a 25' scissor-lift (allows dozens of short test-rappels with different levels of weight, rope diameters, etc).
Plus a full time machinist / CAD genius that tells us when our ideas are getting too stupid.
We have been following your posts with interest and admiring your creations. No doubt we will be buying equipment that you are manufacturing in the months/years to come.
We will be posting complete test results for CRITR soon but here is a basic tensile test of the frame only.
BEST! Todd and Desi
Todd, was this tested in the "manner of function," i.e. with rope properly rigged in the device and tied off to prevent slippage?Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
Nah....It is a 'stupid' test just to see how much the frame can withstand. We had to rig it with big honking steel shackles: thru the biner hole at one end and the head opening on the other
Rigged 'properly' with a rope and carabiner as you would for rappelling either the rope or the 'biner will break long before the CRITR.
It was interesting to see it pop though!
Correct and sensible UIAA format testing to come...
Just completed full UIAA test for "Manual braking device" for the CRITR.
Basically, setting up the CRITR as you would rappel, with 8mm Canyon Pro and loading the CRITR to 7 kN (we kept force over 1,600 lbs.) for I minute.
This test was repeated for ALL friction settings for the CRITR with single and double rope- 18 separate pull tests all together.
ALL PASS:nod:.
Full report next week.
Attachment 72294
After passing the UIAA test decided to pull the abused little CRITR to failure...http://youtu.be/QR92AK8KzsQ
So, the reading on the digital screen, is that the simulated weight applied to the device?
Looks like the rope sheath failed just prior to the CRITR..
would be cool to see in slow motion.
:2thumbs:
Yes, CRITR busted at 3,680 lbs of force.
It is good to know that one can hang a couple of compact cars (1 1/2 SUVs) off the CRITR before it crumples.
In this test set up the braking side of the rope puts a multiplier force around the arm and leg; we will have to try a test with the rope just locked off (hands free) on the CRITR....
now gotta figure out slow mo.....
I wonder also what the actual breaking force was. Like you said its multiplied by the raps minus the friction of the rope on the aluminum.Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
Hey Bootboy-
See you have some gear for sale- nice! We are interested in a sand trap- any pictures?
Because of the friction of the rope wrapped around the CRITR- hard to know the isolated force on the arm/leg/torso....
We used the same set up for this break test because it is what UIAA decided was the best way to evaluate rappel devices (at 7 kN for 1 minute)
It is hard to know WHAT is the most meaningful way to bust a rap device because no one can hang on to a rope end with more than a few hundred lbs. of pressure, unless they have a fireman's belay. So the UIAA test assumes a SUPER fireman's belay and that the combined pull from the rappeller and the belay should be able to handle 7kN. All good. Someone weighing 160 lbs free-falling ten feet or more onto a completely static line (and anchor) could theoretically develop that kind of shock-load, but for just milliseconds, not 60 seconds.
So I think the test is a pretty good hurdle to have to step over- but if you think of a more revealing test - let us know!
CRITR duo available soon. Laser etch underway...
Attachment 72462
This looks like a cool device, but I'm not buying that it doesn't twist the rope. Any device that runs the rope through a figure eight hole or one that involves hooking horns will twist the rope, at least to some degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by harness man
Hi Canyoncaver
You are right! And I should be more careful with blanket assertions!:facepalm1: (my bad)
With the CRITR the rope twist is a matter of degree: our (new) official position is that the CRITR "minimizes rope twist" and compared to the ATS and the Pirana the difference is HUGE when rappelling single line (which is what the CRITR is built for- variable control of heavy loads on skinny single line rappels). When on double rope it DOES tend to twist more like a Pirana.
This minimized twist with the CRITR appears to be the result of a couple of things:
When the (single line) rope is under tension it is mostly aligned in the same plane
With the CRITR the (single line) rope does NOT 'spiral' (twist) around any of the structure.
Many of you will be familiar with the classic 'spiral' groove that wears around the side of the ATS and to a lessor degree, the Pirana.
In our two-plus years researching Rap devices we found that ANY device that twists the rope around a bar 'candy cane' style also twists the heck out of the rope.
Rope twist on the CRITR will also vary depending on the rappellor (the position of the brake hand relative to the CRITR has some effect), and the type and condition of the rope.
The results of our testing with experienced rappellors, single line, on a variety of ropes and friction settings on a 100' mostly free rappel is that the CRITR will spin the rope from zero to two full rotations over the full rappel.
What everyone using the CRITR so far has found is that on single line rappels the CRITR twists the rope much less than the ATS and a bit less than the Pirana.
Thank you for raising the point!
Opps --sentence is unclear---
results of CRITR twist test: some ropes/settings/ people got zero twist; worst was two full twists, most in between with single rope.