Echo--Kid Friendly?

Hi all,

After seeing all the excellent TR's of Zion over the last year, it's finally time to check one out.

My wife, kids an I have permits for Middle Echo next Thursday the 16th and from all the trip reports I've viewed, I haven't seen any with young kids.

Echo looks like it would be fun for kids, but I'd like to know if anyone has any expertise with young kids in this one. My boys are 5, 9 and 11 and had a good time in Leprechaun RF and U-Turn.

Because of the cold water, we will each have a full wetsuit.

If you have any advice or suggestions, we'd sure appreciate it. Also, if y'all believe this is not a good plan, we are open to other options.

Thanks in advance.

I took my son through some parts of Echo when it was dry when he was 3 years old, but that is nothing like doing Middle Echo. The water can get nasty in there and of course it's cold. I don't think of it as being a more difficult canyon than say Pine Creek - except the entrance is a killer dragging wetsuits and ropes up there. You could always enter near the Ponderosa instead and set up a shuttle so you only have downhill hiking. I don't see why you could not take them on this one but then I have not done U-turn. I have done Leprechaun and that is more like a casual stroll. I don't think that would get them ready for Echo. How about one with an easy entrance and exit first that has cold water like Keyhole?

Thanks Tanya,

Yea, I didn't really consider the approach much...did look at the elevation gain on google earth and looks like about 1350' vertical. That shouldn't be a problem for even Trevor (5 yr old) but we'd have to take it slow for sure. I'm pretty sure the "Y" trail in Provo is 1100' vertical and we've hiked it numerous times. We do plan on an early start to beat the heat.

Keyhole is definitely an option, but I was hoping for a little more bang for the buck. But then again, if Leprechaun was a stroll, maybe I need to reconsider for myself! :haha: The boys were fine, but Shane wasn't kidding when he states that it's a "physically demanding" canyon! Of course, it didn't help that I had underestimated the water consumption on an 85

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

My wife, kids an I have permits for Middle Echo next Thursday the 16th and from all the trip reports I've viewed, I haven't seen any with young kids.

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Let us know how it goes if you go. I have a permit for next Saturday for Middle Echo, but no kids on this one. Doing a bunch of other Zions canyons all week, so if I find another that seems appropriate for kids I can let you know.

I would highly suggest keyhole before echo.... if the kids like keyhole then echo is a nice next step. Everyone needs full wetsuits for echo in normal conditions. My Kids did echo at 13 and 15 and loved it. YMMV...

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Originally Posted by Mountaineer

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Let us know how it goes if you go. I have a permit for next Saturday for Middle Echo, but no kids on this one. Doing a bunch of other Zions canyons all week, so if I find another that seems appropriate for kids I can let you know.

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Thanks Mountaineer.

I will definitely post a TR and I would appreciate any future suggestions.

Maybe we'll run into each other again in the middle of nowhere! :haha:

You won't have any problem getting the bang for your buck in keyhole, I was 18 when I did it and loved it! Very fun romp in the water.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I would highly suggest keyhole before echo.... if the kids like keyhole then echo is a nice next step. Everyone needs full wetsuits for echo in normal conditions. My Kids did echo at 13 and 15 and loved it. YMMV...

Sent using Tapatalk

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Iceaxe, my mileage is micro! :haha:

What you and Tanya said makes sense. So it looks like I'm going to call Backcountry Desk and give up my Echo permits for Thurs and get Keyhole permits for Thursday and put in for Echo Last Chance for Friday in case everyone is begging for more! I feel good about that.

Are wetsuits required for Keyhole? We will rent them if we need to.

Thanks, I appreciate your advice.

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

You won't have any problem getting the bang for your buck in keyhole, I was 18 when I did it and loved it! Very fun romp in the water.

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Thanks cookiecutter, I'm sure the boys will love it.

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

Thanks Mountaineer.

I will definitely post a TR and I would appreciate any future suggestions.

Maybe we'll run into each other again in the middle of nowhere! :haha:

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Absolutely! Looking forward to it. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

Iceaxe, my mileage is micro! :haha:

What you and Tanya said makes sense. So it looks like I'm going to call Backcountry Desk and give up my Echo permits for Thurs and get Keyhole permits for Thursday and put in for Echo Last Chance for Friday in case everyone is begging for more! I feel good about that.

Are wetsuits required for Keyhole? We will rent them if we need to.

Thanks, I appreciate your advice.

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Yes, wetsuits are needed for Keyhole. Another thing to consider is neither ZAC or Zion outfitters has a wetsuit that will fit my 5 year old. He is pretty small though.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

Yes, wetsuits are needed for Keyhole. Another thing to consider is neither ZAC or Zion outfitters has a wetsuit that will fit my 5 year old. He is pretty small though.

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Finding a wetsuit for our 5 yr old has been a challenge. I talked to a gal on the phone at ZAC and she said that the one she had would be a little big. So I've been looking on KSL for a shortie that he could wear under it to bulk it up. No dice, there are a few for sale around Utah Valley, but people don't seem to want to sell them too bad because they won't return my calls.

So, I'm thinking about maybe doing some duct tape alterations to tighten it up, not sure how it will work yet, but I'm willing to give it a try.

I'm open for better ideas if anyone has any or if anyone knows where to rent a wetsuit to fit a 38# 5 yr old, that would be great.

All these suggestions --- good stuff.

With very small kids, I have found a few things:

1. lifejackets give them a lot more confidence (one less thing to be scared of) AND provide additional warmth.

2. For the smallest ones, you can keep them mostly out of the water by stationing an adult at the bottom of the rappel, then they piggyback across the pools on the adults back.

3. They will still be cold. Having them rappel themselves might not be a good idea, but not too hard to lower them. Especially when they are 60 lbs or less.

4. Be sure to tell them how the event is going to go. Otherwise they think the cold water will be endless and get really scared. If you haven't done the canyon before, make something up... Keyhole is: "we have a couple rappels and short swims, then we go aways in the darkness, then a long swim, then a couple shorter swims, then the water gets warmer and soon we are out in the sunlight." Echo is: "We have a couple rappels into very cold water, then we will be walking and able to warm up some, but it is a long way back out to the warmth of sunlight.

5. For Echo, I'd bring a drybag and a bunch of very warm clothes for them to put on after the last rappel, to warm back up. Otherwise they will be miserable until they get out. It is a bit of a walk from the last rap to the sun/exit. There is just a little wading until near the end, when there are one or two swims.

Both are great canyons with kids.

Have a great time.

Tom

Thanks Tom,

Yes, definitely planning on lifejacket for the little one, we have a thick neoprene ski vest that fits him snug, so that should help tighten up the wetsuit--at least around his core.

I like the piggyback idea and I might try lowering my 5 year old, but he seems to prefer tandem rapping with me.

I do like the idea of letting them know, I may just use those exact words--excellent.

If we do Echo, we'll have 2 20L drybags that we'll put some fleece sweats in.

Fantastic, thanks again.

If you are worried about them being too cold, you might want to consider a tiny raft. Keyhole is too narrow for one, but Echo is probably wide enough to get the kids through dry on a tiny raft. We've used them in similar canyons before.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

All these suggestions --- good stuff.

With very small kids, I have found a few things:

1. lifejackets give them a lot more confidence (one less thing to be scared of) AND provide additional warmth.

2. For the smallest ones, you can keep them mostly out of the water by stationing an adult at the bottom of the rappel, then they piggyback across the pools on the adults back.

3. They will still be cold. Having them rappel themselves might not be a good idea, but not too hard to lower them. Especially when they are 60 lbs or less.

4. Be sure to tell them how the event is going to go. Otherwise they think the cold water will be endless and get really scared. If you haven't done the canyon before, make something up... Keyhole is: "we have a couple rappels and short swims, then we go aways in the darkness, then a long swim, then a couple shorter swims, then the water gets warmer and soon we are out in the sunlight." Echo is: "We have a couple rappels into very cold water, then we will be walking and able to warm up some, but it is a long way back out to the warmth of sunlight.

5. For Echo, I'd bring a drybag and a bunch of very warm clothes for them to put on after the last rappel, to warm back up. Otherwise they will be miserable until they get out. It is a bit of a walk from the last rap to the sun/exit. There is just a little wading until near the end, when there are one or two swims.

Both are great canyons with kids.

Have a great time.

Tom

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Wow! Look at you being all fatherly like! Great advise!:2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

All these suggestions --- good stuff.

With very small kids, I have found a few things:

......

Tom

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Wow, yes - great advice. Thanks Tom.

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

Thanks Tom,

Yes, definitely planning on lifejacket for the little one, we have a thick neoprene ski vest that fits him snug, so that should help tighten up the wetsuit--at least around his core.

I like the piggyback idea and I might try lowering my 5 year old, but he seems to prefer tandem rapping with me.

I do like the idea of letting them know, I may just use those exact words--excellent.

If we do Echo, we'll have 2 20L drybags that we'll put some fleece sweats in.

Fantastic, thanks again.

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The rappels in Echo generally have awkward starts (esp. the last one) and may not be amendable to a side-by-side rappel, though with that small a companion, your rappel is more likely up/down.

We learn by doing things poorly. Since I have already done them poorly, it is not necessary for you to also do them poorly.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Scott P

If you are worried about them being too cold, you might want to consider a tiny raft. Keyhole is too narrow for one, but Echo is probably wide enough to get the kids through dry on a tiny raft. We've used them in similar canyons before.

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Good idea--I don't have a raft, but I do have a little blow up innertube pool toy that we used in Upper Black Box that I'll throw in the pack in case we need it. Just the right size for a 5 yr old. We'll see how it goes in Keyhole.

Thanks Scott.

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We'll see how it goes in Keyhole.

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Keyhole is probably too narrow to use it.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

The rappels in Echo generally have awkward starts (esp. the last one) and may not be amendable to a side-by-side rappel, though with that small a companion, your rappel is more likely up/down.

We learn by doing things poorly. Since I have already done them poorly, it is not necessary for you to also do them poorly.

Tom

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By "up/down" do you mean like this?

Attachment 57595

That is the method he is most comfortable with and has worked great, except for one time. Hard to see, but that's an BD ATC on an Attache just out of Trevors reach.

That's a great quote--I certainly have been most grateful for a forum with wonderful folks willing to share things that work and things that didn't work so well...:2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

By "up/down" do you mean like this?

That is the method he is most comfortable with and has worked great, except for one time. Hard to see, but that's an BD ATC on an Attache just out of Trevors reach.

That's a great quote--I certainly have been most grateful for a forum with wonderful folks willing to share things that work and things that didn't work so well...:2thumbs:

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Yup just like that.

And another thought inspired by the pic - giving them a light might be a good idea too, for both Echo and Keyhole. Can be dark in there, no reason not to manage all possible fear-creators...

Tom

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

Finding a wetsuit for our 5 yr old has been a challenge. I talked to a gal on the phone at ZAC and she said that the one she had would be a little big. So I've been looking on KSL for a shortie that he could wear under it to bulk it up. No dice, there are a few for sale around Utah Valley, but people don't seem to want to sell them too bad because they won't return my calls.

So, I'm thinking about maybe doing some duct tape alterations to tighten it up, not sure how it will work yet, but I'm willing to give it a try.

I'm open for better ideas if anyone has any or if anyone knows where to rent a wetsuit to fit a 38# 5 yr old, that would be great.

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If you want to drive to Kaysville I have a bunch of small shorties. I'll give you what ever you want. There just taking up space in the garage.

Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

If you want to drive to Kaysville I have a bunch of small shorties. I'll give you what ever you want. There just taking up space in the garage.

Mark

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Thanks Mark--PM sent.

I think you would be wasting your time with the pool toy in any of the Zion slots. The pools you have to cross are so short that you will spend more time getting the kid in and out of the donut then you would if you just piggy backed them across. This is nothing like the swimming required in something like the Black Box or Black Hole.

When my kids were little I would just have the kids climb on my back with their arms around my neck and swim all the short pools and potholes. We also used to do this all the time at the motel swimming pools and local lakes so it was nothing new to the kids. Only downside is I would not use this method if you are a poor swimmer.

There is just not that much swimming in Keyhole or Echo. Nothing over about 10' in length.

:popcorn:

wouldn't be too quick to put on warm dry clothes after the last rap in echo,saturday there were two swims after that last rap.
I agree that it is a bit much for a 5 yr old, between the good hike up, and the multiple cold water pools. the kids will love keyhole, and you don't risk being as over extended.

rick t