Das Boot & The Subway

Stephanie, Tyler, Aralynn and I headed down Das Boot and The Subway on May 24th, 2012. The weather and lighting were amazing!! We wore 7mm wetsuits, neoprene booties and gloves; needless to say hypothermia was not an issue. We were all playing like kids in a waterpark. Seriously, it was the most fun I've ever had on a hike.

We sprinted from Das Boot to the wet part of The Subway with our wetsuits on. This proved to be an excellent strategy. There is more water in The Subway than I've ever seen (over the past 7 years), and it is chilly. The weather only warmed up to 75-80 degrees, so those that we encountered without wetsuits were freezing their butts off. :cold:

Steph and I wore headlamps after reading that Das Boot is so dark in places that you might not be able to see. This is decidedly NOT TRUE. There are places where it is dim, but there is easily enough light to navigate with.

FWIW, you can swim underneath the jammed log in Keyhole falls. It is a tight fit, but all four of us did it. A couple of photos are provided below.

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I've seen a bunch of photos of people rapping into The Subway. This might be the most disturbing one. :eek2:
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http://amazingslots.blogspot.com/201...nd-subway.html

oops. meant to post in the rope thread.

:2thumbs:Looks great in there. Nice TR.

Ken

Cool nice pics

Looks like a good time.

Shoot me an email sideband, will ya... not sure I have your real email at hand.

CanyoneeringUSA at gmail dot com

Thanks.

Tom

thanks for the update. we are heading down this weekend

How hard is it to get a permit for Das Boot? Limited? Stand outside permit office early? And, are the Das Boot permits only available at the permit office, not online? I enjoyed the Subway so much last week that I'm going back this next week and I would like to add Das Boot into the endeavor. Do I pay for two separate permits? Anyone care to explain? Thanks!

I just pick up a Subway permit. There is no official starting point to the Subway. This getting dual permits is something a couple dumbass canyoneers started. YMMV

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Originally Posted by WorkBad

How hard is it to get a permit for Das Boot? Limited? Stand outside permit office early? And, are the Das Boot permits only available at the permit office, not online? I enjoyed the Subway so much last week that I'm going back this next week and I would like to add Das Boot into the endeavor. Do I pay for two separate permits? Anyone care to explain? Thanks!

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There is a separate permit, I agree with Shane that it is dumb. It's not really necessary to obtain it.

However, if you didn't return from your hike, the park would have a better idea of where you are and it *might* expedite your rescue. :ne_nau:

Or maybe the park wants to limit the number of people down the Boot. 50 people venturing through in one day would be an awfully big crowd.

Those are the only reasons I can imagine for its existence. :ne_nau:

The Boot/Subway combo is really, really good! Leaving the wetsuits on until the end was an awesome way enjoy the route.

Have fun man!

Thanks for the replies. I read Shane's story about the naming of Das Boot http://climb-utah.com/Zion/boot2.htm, good stuff!

Slot Machine, I enjoyed your pics by the way and thanks for the TR.

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

The Boot/Subway combo is really, really good! Leaving the wetsuits on until the end was an awesome way enjoy the route.

Have fun man!

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We did this route the Wednesday before Memorial weekend, having reserved both Das Boot and Subway permits online a couple of months back. We'd missed the lottery for May, but snagged a couple of unreserved mid-week Subway spaces.

The final printed (single) permit showed our entry point to be Das Boot and the exit via the Left Fork TH, and it cost the usual $10 for two people.

Cheers,

Michael.

I'm confused here...

All the online permits for the subway are taken for the next two months. Why risk simply "picking up a subway permit", as shane said, when you could reserve a boot permit and not have to wait in line or take the chance of being too late the morning of? Very few days in the next 2 months are taken for the boot. Seems prudent to me to get a boot permit and play it safe

Am I missing something?

Here is the deal... originally a Das Boot permit was part of a Subway permit (and still is as far as I'm concerned). Das Boot was just considered an alternate entry to the Subway (same as Russll Gulch).

Then a couple canyoneers started asking for Das Boot permits because they only wanted to do Das Boot and not hike out the Subway, so the park was nice enough to create a Das Boot only permit that required you to exit out the standard Subway Entrance. Soon enough canyoneers saw the Das Boot only permit on the pull-downs and started adding a Das Boot permit to their Subway permit and somehow it has become standard practice to pick up both permits when doing the Das Boot/Suway combo.

So.... unless the park is requiring me to enter and exit at a specific GPS waypoint I consider Das Boot and Russel Gulch to be slight variations of the standard Subway route. Your Subway permit states you are entering at Wildcat and exiting at Left Fork and with a Subway permit you are doing that. If canyoneers would stop picking up a Das Boot permit when exiting the Subway this mess would return to the "normal" way it once was.

:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

somehow it has become standard practice to pick up both permits when doing the Das Boot/Subway combo.

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As I stated above, the ranger at the VC charged us for and issued a *single* permit for our recent trip.

I suppose this could viewed as a Subway permit (with Das Boot entry), or a Das Boot permit (with Subway/Left Fork TH exit) depending on one's particular point of view.

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Originally Posted by WorkBad

I read Shane's story ...

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:ne_nau: :facepalm1: :facepalm1: :facepalm1:

T

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Here is the deal... originally a Das Boot permit was part of a Subway permit (and still is as far as I'm concerned). Das Boot was just considered an alternate entry to the Subway (same as Russll Gulch).

Then a couple canyoneers started asking for Das Boot permits because they only wanted to do Das Boot and not hike out the Subway, so the park was nice enough to create a Das Boot only permit that required you to exit out the standard Subway Entrance. Soon enough canyoneers saw the Das Boot only permit on the pull-downs and started adding a Das Boot permit to their Subway permit and somehow it has become standard practice to pick up both permits when doing the Das Boot/Suway combo.

So.... unless the park is requiring me to enter and exit at a specific GPS waypoint I consider Das Boot and Russel Gulch to be slight variations of the standard Subway route. Your Subway permit states you are entering at Wildcat and exiting at Left Fork and with a Subway permit you are doing that. If canyoneers would stop picking up a Das Boot permit when exiting the Subway this mess would return to the "normal" way it once was.

:cool2:

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Revisionista!

It's a nice story, Shane, it's a shame it doesn't happen to be true.

ALL of the backcountry canyons have a 6-person group size limit and a (roughly) 12 person-per day quota. ALL of them; except exceptions were made for The Subway, Pine Creek, The Narrows and Orderville. These four canyons were placed in the Primitive Zone (rather than the Pristine Zone like the rest of the backcountry) because they were already seeing significant usage when the zone system was set up. Thus, your Primitive Zone Subway Permit allows you access to the standard Russell Gulch approach and to the Left Fork of North Creek, from Russell Gulch to the Left Fork Trailhead, but not to adjacent territory, which is in the Pristine Zone.

Das Boot requires going out of the special Subway Zone, and thus requires a separate, Pristine Zone permit. The two permits can be on one piece of paper, written once and paid for once. In which case, it would be a Das Boot/Subway permit.

Doing JUST Das Boot and hiking out is no fun. The hike out is way more uphill than you would think from going down it.

There are many, MANY things I disagree with regarding the Zion permit system. But I think just blowing it off, encouraging other people to blow it off and lying about it are not good strategies for getting a more-rational permit system in the future. Especially in public.

Tom :moses:

And I was always of the impression that a Das Boot permit, by itself, required exit up and out the Subway entrance.(should be printed on permit)
Combining with the subway requires an additional declaration stating Das Boot/Subway. Adding the subway to Das Boot, takes a permit from the allowed daily quota from the subway, doing Das boot alone does not.

Umm-Sorry Tom, I don't think I added anything to what you stated, just didn't see it before posting.

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Originally Posted by oldno7

And I was always of the impression that a Das Boot permit, by itself, required exit up and out the Subway entrance.(should be printed on permit)
Combining with the subway requires an additional declaration stating Das Boot/Subway. Adding the subway to Das Boot, takes a permit from the allowed daily quota from the subway, doing Das boot alone does not.

Umm-Sorry Tom, I don't think I added anything to what you stated, just didn't see it before posting.

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All correct, dear. :naughty:

yes, the usual path is to secure a Subway permit first, then add a Das Boot reservation or permit to it later. But a Das Boot permit is just good for Das Boot, and requires an exit out Russell Gulch if a Subway permit is not also in hand.

Same applies to a full left fork.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Revisionista!

It's a nice story, Shane, it's a shame it doesn't happen to be true.

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That is exactly what happened.... there is no such thing as Das Boot, that is a story written by Dave Pitney....

Anyhoo.... it works like this.... if you ask for a permit at the Backcountry desk they will issue you a permit and charge you for it.... EVEN IF A PERMIT IS NOT REQUIRED....

Don't believe me? Ask for a Russel Gulch Permit or a Misery Canyon permit and you will be charged and one will be issued. You will never be told a permit is not required... or in the case of Russel Gulch your standard Subway permit works just fine.

And I once told Ranger Ray this was bullshit and canyoneers should be told permits to certain areas are not required when folks attempt to obtain them.... his response was the Park likes to know where people are and they consider it a safety measure, so Zion will issue a permit, even if it is not required, if you ask for one.

So.... you are more then welcome to take up the finer details with Ranger Ray if you like. But until I am given specific checkpoints to hit on a route I'll just go with my dead reckoning of where the route goes...

Maybe I should just change my standard Subway route description and call the entrance 1/2 mile east (Das Boot Entrance) the standard Subway route, and what is now the standard route I'll call the "hiker entrance". That should fix it.... then when asked by a ranger you can hand over your route description and say "I'm on course" .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldno7

And I was always of the impression that a Das Boot permit, by itself, required exit up and out the Subway entrance.(should be printed on permit)
Combining with the subway requires an additional declaration stating Das Boot/Subway. Adding the subway to Das Boot, takes a permit from the allowed daily quota from the subway, doing Das boot alone does not.

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That is what it has become.... but it was not always so (despite what Tom says)... there was no Das Boot, until Pitney's story became popular. Subway permits were around long before the story...

For what it's worth, it is nearly impossible to understand from the NPS website that not 1 but 2 permits are required to descend the Subway via Das Boot.

Zion Park Wilderness Information indicates two ways to hike the Left Fork... one from the bottom and back... and the other way from the top down.

So it would be reasonable to think that an Upper Left Fork (Das Boot) permit would get you a downstream exit. What a rude awakening when the ranger informs you that you don't have permission to complete the Subway. Instead walk your arse back up the canyon.

The permitting of Das Boot and Subway should be made more clear in the website.

Thanks to those of you that have contributed to this thread. Now I know.

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Originally Posted by SlickRock

Now I know.

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And knowing is half the battle.

To add to the confusion, Tom's website says the Russell Gulch approach requires a seperate permit from the normal Subway, but I don't see it on the NPS drop-down menu. Das Boot is there, but no Russell Gulch. What am I missing ?

Do I intepret this correct in that the Russell Gulch permit is only avaiable at the visitor's center and not online ?

What you're missing is the fact that the bc desk will give permits for more areas/canyons than are on the list. They want to know where and how many people there are in bc. Not necessarily a bad thing. Make up a name of an area in the park, tell how many people and how long you'll be there, and you will probably be given a permit with that info on it. There isn't a separate permit for Russel Gulch, just that bit of info (that you are going directly down the gulch) on the normal Subway permit. Anyway that's how we did it last Fall.

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Originally Posted by deagol

Do I intepret this correct in that the Russell Gulch permit is only avaiable at the visitor's center and not online ?

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PLEASE do not start asking for a Russel gulch permit, your subway permit covers it. This is exactly how the das boot permits got so f**ked up.

Taylor,
Thanks, that makes sense...

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

PLEASE do not start asking for a Russel gulch permit, your subway permit covers it. This is exactly how the das boot permits got so f**ked up.

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From Tom's website: "Russell Gulch requires an additional permit to your Subway permit, has a group size limit of 6 and a daily quota of 12".

But I see your point. Ugggg:facepalm1:

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Originally Posted by deagol

From Tom's website: "Russell Gulch requires an additional permit to your Subway permit, has a group size limit of 6 and a daily quota of 12".

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It's on the internet.... it must be true. :roll:

Tom's website is wrong... but the park will issue a permit if you ask... the park will issue you a permit, and charge you for anything if you ask.... which is the point I've been trying to make.

To do the Subway.... Russel Gulch is IS the standard entrance.... and you do not need a special permit if you decide to avoid the walk around...

FWIW: Shane's website says you don't need a seperate permit. :bootyshake:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

It's on the internet.... it must be true. :roll:

Tom's website is wrong... but the park will issue a permit if you ask... the park will issue you a permit, and charge you for anything if you ask.

To do the Subway.... Russel Gulch is IS the standard entrance.... and you do not need a special permit if you decide to avoid the walk around...

FWIW: Shane's website says you don't need a seperate permit.

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OK, we won't get an additional permit, sounds like an unnessisary extra step to me anyways...
But it is weird the way people "in the know" disagree on things like this.

I know the NPS charges for things they don't need to. Rocky Mt NP did the same for me a while back, but that's another story.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Anyhoo.... it works like this.... if you ask for a permit at the Backcountry desk they will issue you a permit and charge you for it.... EVEN IF A PERMIT IS NOT REQUIRED....
.

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Shane:
I do not see Hidden Canyon listed on the Backcountry Desk drop down menu for permits. Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

I have assumed, perhaps in error, that ANY trip into the Zion backcountry requires a permit...

Kerry

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Originally Posted by Slot Machine

FWIW, you can swim underneath the jammed log in Keyhole falls. It is a tight fit, but all four of us did it. A couple of photos are provided below.

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Just for clarification, from your pictures, it looks like you can also swim under the new log jam at the "bowling ball" as well...

Kerry

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Originally Posted by taatmk

Shane:
Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

I have assumed, perhaps in error, that ANY trip into the Zion backcountry requires a permit...

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no he is not saying you don't need a permit if it's not listed in the advance reservation page. you need a permit for any technical canyon route in the park. (though some may argue if the park doesn't know about the route then you shouldn't tell them)

What shane (or at least what I understand his argument to be, he can write it himself) is trying to argue is the "subway" permit is the left fork. trying to state it doesn't matter if you are starting the standard entrance, russel gulch, das boot, wild cat, west rim, from the bottom, or any alternative you can think of, it's still the left fork. So why not get a permit for just the left fork.

now if subway was booked and you wanted to do das boot by it self then you could get that permit separately for that portion.

some would disagree with shane's argument. but that is the problem of the permit system with so many entrances to a route which one is Primitive Zone vs Pristine Zone when it's the same drainage.

I'm not arguing one position over the other. I'll let others duke it out trying to prove someone wrong on the internet. Just clarifying the argument being made here.

Clear as mud now?

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Originally Posted by taatmk

Shane:
I do not see Hidden Canyon listed on the Backcountry Desk drop down menu for permits. Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

I have assumed, perhaps in error, that ANY trip into the Zion backcountry requires a permit...

Kerry

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I have encouraged the Park to add more canyons to the reservation list, but...

Any hiking with ropes in a canyon in Zion requires a wilderness permit, as does any descent of the Narrows or Orderville or the Subway.

Don't let Shane's bluster confuse you. Shane makes some good points about how to work around the rules, how to cheat, lie and steal, while my website states what the rules are. The NPS bureaucracy works by simple rules; those are the rules. It is your choice whether to follow the rules or not, but please allow me to encourage you to follow the rules.

Tom

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Originally Posted by taatmk

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Originally Posted by Slot machine

http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/b...post-right.png

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Originally Posted by Slot machine

FWIW, you can swim underneath the jammed log in Keyhole falls. It is a tight fit, but all four of us did it. A couple of photos are provided below.

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Just for clarification, from your pictures, it looks like you can also swim under the new log jam at the "bowling ball" as well...

Kerry

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Some people use different names for the various obstacles. I try to follow the oldest source I know of, the Brereton and Dunaway. The obstacle pictured with the log jam is known as the Bowling Ball.

Keyhole Falls is a little later, the 10 foot drop with the small arch on the left that can be downclimbed through. It seems unlikely there is a crawl-under at Keyhole Falls.

Tom

From NPS website:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Trip Information
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Resource Area:
[/TH]
[TD]Left Fork North Creek (SUBWAY)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Resource Information:
[/TH]
[TD]Expect cold, higher water. Wear thick wetsuits. Do not jump! Use a rope and harness. Bring a map and route description. Use slickrock, do not create new trails.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Trip Start Date:
[/TH]
[TD]Tuesday, August 28, 2012
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Number in Party:*
[/TH]
[TD]1234
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Reservation Fee:
[/TH]
[TD]$
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]100% of the fees go to Zion National Park
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Select one itinerary from below*
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Subway Round Trip from Left Fork(bottom) Trailhead
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: daydisplay"]Left Fork Trailhead (Subway) [B](Begin Trip)

One reason the Park is reluctant to provide any information on other routes is because it encourages people. They prefer Visitors to stay on the same 6 or 8 routes, and not 'explore new ground'.

It is also not their job to let you know what is available. That is my job, or your job to go find out.

Tom

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Originally Posted by taatmk

I do not see Hidden Canyon listed on the Backcountry Desk drop down menu for permits. Are you saying then, that if the canyon is not listed there, one is not needed?

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If it requires a rope you need a permit.

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

What shane (or at least what I understand his argument to be, he can write it himself) is trying to argue is the "subway" permit is the left fork. trying to state it doesn't matter if you are starting the standard entrance, russel gulch, das boot, wild cat, west rim, from the bottom, or any alternative you can think of, it's still the left fork. So why not get a permit for just the left fork.

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YES and NO.... your permits does declare a trailhead. When you pick up a standard Subway permit you can the trailheads.... at least that is what we once did with a Subway permit... we told them we were entering a lava Point, they marked it, and we were good to go.... Now if a Full Left Forks starts to be an issue (I doubt it ever will, that is a loooong haul) things could change.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Don't let Shane's bluster confuse you. Shane makes some good points about how to work around the rules, how to cheat, lie and steal, while my website states what the rules are. The NPS bureaucracy works by simple rules; those are the rules. It is your choice whether to follow the rules or not, but please allow me to encourage you to follow the rules.

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If guys like you keep f**king around and telling folks to get permits that are not required soon you will create an even bigger mess than what you have started.... just what we need.... additional permits required for those that want to skip the walk-around, which is what Russel Gulch is.

What next? a special "canyonman" permit for those that do the bowling ally walk around? Geez.... have some commonsence.... I mean after all... Das Boot is a story... and since canyonman skipped the bowling alley and rapped back in should that now be a special permit? I mean really.... Canyonman was also a great story......

There is a "Das Boot" portion of the Subway that has been treated as distinct by canyoneers. I didn't know of Pitney's story when we did it, though I likely did it with Ram and/or Pitney the first time. The story went public years after I explored the drainage. I have always considered it a different canyon and about half the time hike out above the Subway.

That said, policy wise, it seems odd and completely unique to treat the main stem of a canyon as fundamentally two drainages. Anywhere else that this happens in canyoneering?

There are benefit and negatives to that approach. It is an immense benefit to have the drainage as separate on the days the Subway is sold out (which has never happened the times I wanted to do the hike). It sucks though to have add even more policy.

I disagree with Shane in the interpretation of current policy (and its history). It seems obvious to me that the park has designed the system for the drainage to be two separate permits, for good or bad. It seems like trying to advise people it isn't such hurts us in the long run and just appears to be gaming the system.

Phillip