Originally Posted by
ratagonia
Cool, let's take your points one at a time.
"People have be been bullied in an attempt to keep things secret. Sara T and myself are prime examples. "Show Don't Tell" might have been a fun concept, until people started getting mistreated. (I'm over it, just saying others shouldn't be treated this way in the future)"
You call that bullying? Yes, it is unfortunate that Sara T did not have a clear vision of what the agreement was; and it is unfortunate that asking her to remove the indicative photos was done in a poor fashion; and it is unfortunate that Sara responded in an immature way to being called to the mat for not knowing what the agreement was.
Yes, to some extent making agreements at times leads to people misunderstanding their agreements, and people getting upset about these misunderstandings. Then again, misunderstandings occur all the time, around all sorts of issues, trivial and non-trivial. Welcome to life.
And YOU, Bob - Bullied???? Give me a frackin' break. What are you 7 years old? You didn't get your way whahhhhh whahhhh whahhhh - call the whambulance!!
"There is no logical motive to keep canyons secret. I've looked hard at this from every angle. To keep bolts and trash out of canyons? Nah. To keep newbies from hurting themselves? Nope. Private property issues? Normally, no. To help preserve the canyon environment for future generations? Sounds really nice, but no. The motive remains a mystery to me."
Here's some good reasons:
a. because the people who found and descended the canyon WANT to, CHOOSE to.
b. because published canyons get trashed. Litter, bolts, tons of webbing, rope grooves, human feces, helium balloons - oh wait, all canyons have helium balloons - rope grooves.
c. Yes, to keep noobies from hurting themselves. Noobies lack an imagination, and have trouble imagining canyons that are hard. Noobies sometimes wander into canyons they can't do. So far, we have kept most of the difficult canyons off the radar. Let's give it two years, Bob, and see how many rescues there are out in the Dante's, now that you have bullied us into releasing information on them.
d. Private property issues: can be big. There are only a few canyons on private land, but... low traffic = no problems, maybe, with the landowner. more traffic = landowner takes notice, and posts no-trespassing signs. Happened in the Oak Creek area, happens in other private land areas.
e. Public property issues: again, low traffic, the land manager does not even know about it. Higher traffic: land manager has to take notice, look for Mexican Owls, institute a permit system, etc.
f. To preserve the canyon environment - I'd say this is probably the #1 reason. If we hold the cards close to our chest, the canyons stay pretty much the way they are - pristine. A dozen, experienced, competent canyoneers a year going through a canyon has almost no effect on canyons. Scores of canyoneers of a variety of competences = trashing the canyon. This story has been repeated again and again.
from a quote I saw last month: "I can explain it for you, Bob. But I can't understand it for you." And perhaps we'll just disagree - politely or impolitely, your choice.
But let me add some more reasons:
g. because the people who have unpublished canyon information choose to do it that way. America - frack yeah!
h. because there are enough published canyons to keep people busy for a long time. There's plenty, why do you need more?
i. to preserve a sense of adventure and the unknown. Is the world really a better place when it is fully parsed out? Isn't this one of the prime interests of canyoneering, exploring some of the "last of the unknown"?
j. because not all places need to be the same. It is better for the environment, and better for land managers, and better for most individuals if OUR canyoneering is focused into a smaller set of canyons (than "all"). Kind of like zoning. Yes, the canyons in North Wash get crowded, but not too crowded. They can take it well. It's very social. And if Middle Lep is too crowded for you, go do Monkey Business, Shenanigans or Foolin' around - not much crowding in those, even though they are nearby and not difficult.
"The availability of canyoneering beta is growing exponentially. "Show Don't Tell" fights this growth, wasting the time of those that seek beta. There is no point in fighting this growth."
An odd argument - inevitability. Tilting at windmills has a long tradition among us environmentalists. The goal is to slow the train down and eventually stop it. We don't expect to stop it right now, we expect to lose more ground, but eventually the train will stop, and there *might* be some pristine terrain left when we get there.
"Tom, I find if very perplexing that you have a business that benefits from this inevitable growth, but at the same time want to keep some beta secret. I'm not being snide, I'm viewing your approach from a business perspective and it just doesn't make any sense."
I am a canyoneer first and a business person later. Canyoneering does not require lots of new beta to grow. As canyoneers mature, they realize that beta is not all that useful, that exploring new canyons is more fun, better. So canyoneers, except Shane, kinda naturally evolve into Show Not Tell canyoneers.
Or, another way to look at it, there are plenty of people out there doing new canyons, and sharing the beta. So, there's plenty of canyon beta out there, and there is plenty of new beta coming "on line" all the time.
So I don't really see why you continue to bully me and my friends. Other than the obvious, that you like bullying people.
:deadhorse:
Tom :moses:
