Pot Shot & Sand Trap Techniques

Thanks for bringing up this subject. Potshots/traps seem to not be talked about much, and could to be the most 'mysterious' of anchor types. When should we use them and why? Why this type and not another?
Perhaps we can get some light shed on dynamic anchors.

The four considerations for any anchor are:
1. safety- obvious
2. pull-can we get our rope back? will we leave rope grooves?
3. convenience- how easily can we get on rap?
4.trash- How much and what are we leaving behind? webbing, rapides, rope grooves?

When planning to use dynamic anchors, should both shots and traps be carried?
What are the differences/ versatility of each type?
When is a trap preferred over a shot?

What can we fill these things with?

Lets start with this much. Anyone?

Great conversation Penny, hopefully this can be split off into it's own thread.
I have some ideas for the sandtrap I was hoping to test this week, I'll post up my ideas and findings when I get back next week.

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Originally Posted by oldno7

hopefully this can be split off into it's own thread.

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Done :2thumbs:

Looking forward to seeing what materializes from this thread. :cool2:

I use my potshots to carry my bolting kit and G-pick. They're the perfect size!!

I'm actually really interested in this thread. My friend just bought a SandTrap and we're planning on going to test it out this weekend. Any tips?

Here are a few tips from my limited experience with the trap. The larger the group the better. Would recommend at least 4 or 5 guys. The smaller the group the greater the risk for the last guy. Always have the lightest go last if they are a competent rappeler. Always back it up till the last guys goes. If it moves add more sand or readjust where the trap is laying. Rappel smoothly and slide over the lip on your hip. Bring several pot shots to shuttle sand to the trap if necessary. Pulling the trap is pretty easy. Just make sure there is no pinch spot to catch the trap as it goes over the edge. When you use one the first time you think someone has lost their mind. But after several rappels you become a believer. I also attached a picture of a potshot which had been tossed by me to climb out of a pot hole. I had tossed it from where the guy is upstream. The potshot wedged itself in the crack and I was able to climb out. You could also rappel on this concept. To retrieve tie a rope on the bottom of the bag and flip it over to pull it. Could be difficult to pull so may want to double rope so you could at least get your rope back. Recommend also backing up this concept if possible. If the drop is big the bag may explode when it hits the ground.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Here are a few tips from my limited experience with the trap. The larger the group the better. Would recommend at least 4 or 5 guys. The smaller the group the greater the risk for the last guy. Always have the lightest go last if they are a competent rappeler. Always back it up till the last guys goes. If it moves add more sand or readjust where the trap is laying. Rappel smoothly and slide over the lip on your hip. Bring several pot shots to shuttle sand to the trap if necessary. Pulling the trap is pretty easy. Just make sure there is no pinch spot to catch the trap as it goes over the edge. When you use one the first time you think someone has lost their mind. But after several rappels you become a believer. I also attached a picture of a potshot which had been tossed by me to climb out of a pot hole. I had tossed it from where the guy is upstream. The potshot wedged itself in the crack and I was able to climb out. You could also rappel on this concept. To retrieve tie a rope on the bottom of the bag and flip it over to pull it. Could be difficult to pull so may want to double rope so you could at least get your rope back. Recommend also backing up this concept if possible. If the drop is big the bag may explode when it hits the ground.

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Thanks for getting us started and for including clear pics.
I have rapped off of potshots. I have filled them with sand, rocks, and mud depending on what was available.
I have used either a pull rope or a rap rope as the pull. Both have been successful. Pots don't always empty when flipped which makes them difficult to retrieve and increases the chances of grooving.
I have used them in the chock mode, on a flat surface set far back from the edge, and behind a ledge such as a lip of a pothole or a sand dam.

I have tossed potshots and used them to exit potholes either as a chock, on a flat surface far from the edge, or as a counter balance hanging in the next pot.

Referencing the red words in the quote above, it sounds like Russian Roulette for the last person, i.e. lightest person, i.e. me. This sounds marginal and yet it is what I hear every time in connection with traps.

Another question would be, aren't traps gear intensive? More rope, more biners (to connect the four corners), and shots to shuttle sand.

For most situations 2 ropes are needed when using a trap. One to rappel and one to pull. The trap has a piece of webbing that runs through the center, when you pull this webbing it squeezes the center of the trap and the sand falls out of the ends of the taco shell. Hope that made sense. As far as Russian Roulette it isn't much difference then rappeling off of a pot shot or any other retrievable anchor. If it is retrievable it has a higher chance of failure. That is why you want several heavier guys to go prior to the last guy. From my experience it is surprising solid. If you look at the picture I posted with the group of guys. I am the one in the T shirt and the guy behind me is pushing 240 lbs. I come in around 190 lbs. He went first and stood up going over the edge and the trap didn't even budge. The rest went on their hip and I went last. After 4 had gone I felt pretty comfortable but yes it gets your blood pressure up a bit.
Edit if you look at the third picture you can see the webbing going off to the side with the pull cord tied to it. The last guy tosses that down.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

For most situations 2 ropes are needed when using a trap. One to rappel and one to pull. The trap has a piece of webbing that runs through the center, when you pull this webbing it squeezes the center of the trap and the sand falls out of the ends of the taco shell. Hope that made sense. As far as Russian Roulette it isn't much difference then rappeling off of a pot shot or any other retrievable anchor. If it is retrievable it has a higher chance of failure. That is why you want several heavier guys to go prior to the last guy. From my experience it is surprising solid. If you look at the picture I posted with the group of guys. I am the one in the T shirt and the guy behind me is pushing 240 lbs. I come in around 190 lbs. He went first and stood up going over the edge and the trap didn't even budge. The rest went on their hip and I went last. After 4 had gone I felt pretty comfortable but yes it gets your blood pressure up a bit.
Edit if you look at the third picture you can see the webbing going off to the side with the pull cord tied to it. The last guy tosses that down.

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Mark -

In one of those pics, the rope is set up not tied from the end, but somewhere in the middle. Not like it was a problem in that particular situation, but...

It seems better to always (ie, usually) tie in with the end of the rope. I say this as the 10 feet of rope closest to the SandTrap gets dirty, then chewed up. Better to lose 10 feet off one end, rather than 10 feet in the middle of a rope.

(Nice lookin' rope, that...) :naughty:

Tom :moses:

If you look closely I have about a 15 ft tail to use as the back up. Wanted to sit farther back from the end then my leash would allow.

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Originally Posted by moab mark

If you look closely I have about a 15 ft tail to use as the back up. Wanted to sit farther back from the end then my leash would allow.

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That's a good reason.

I am a bit uncomfortable calling these "dynamic" anchors. I know what a dynamic anchor is, I did one last November... :cry1:

"Ghosting" anchors, perhaps. "Retrievable". "Sand-based"?:ne_nau:

Tom :moses:

Manufacturer's official statement:

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Originally Posted by Imlay Canyon Gear

SandTrap - Advanced Anchor

The SandTrap is a new, advanced anchoring system thought up by Springdale’s Steve Woodford; that allows for a solid, reliable and retrievable anchor in many sandstone-canyon environments. Essentially, if you have sand, and a little bit of favorable geometry to work with, you can get an anchor.

As an ADVANCED anchor system, the SandTrap requires careful judgment and execution to use safely. PRACTICE will be required to get a feel for how much sand is required, and how much favorable geometry is required to produce a safe anchor. Please, BACKUP the SandTrap EVERY TIME until it has proven itself secure in the given circumstance. For this reason, it is suggested that the SandTrap will work better with sufficient people available to allow thorough testing of the Trap’s security before the final, ‘last man’ rappels from it without backup.

USING THE SANDTRAP
1. USE A CARABINER OR RAPID LINK to connect the rope to the SandTrap – both for the rappel rope and for the retrieval rope. Rope-on-webbing action will quickly wear out the tie-in points, so use metal for this vital link.
2. INSPECT the tie-in points and the retrieval strap on a regular basis, perhaps after every rappel. If either of these critical components are damaged, carefully evaluate the severity of the damage and whether continued use is safe.

SANDTRAP PARTS

The INSIDE of the SandTrap is smooth – this is where the sand goes.
The OUTSIDE of the SandTrap has several straps and belt loops on it – where all the action takes place.

The TOP EDGE of the SandTrap has the “Imlay Canyon Gear” label, and the retrieval strap sliding through a belt loop; the BOTTOM EDGE of the SandTrap has the retrieval strap sewn to the tarp near its center.

FOUR TIE IN POINTS are found at the corners of the tarp. Use a locking carabiner to clip all four of these to the Rappel Rope.

ONE RETRIEVAL STRAP runs up the center of the SandTrap through 4 belt loops and out the top. Use a locking carabiner to attach this to a retrieval rope.

A BACKUP RETRIEVAL TIE-IN POINT is sewn at the center of the bottom edge, allowing attachment of a retrieval strap should the primary retrieval strap fail.

PREPARING THE SANDTRAP

Place the SandTrap on the ground, with the OUTSIDE of SandTrap facing down, the smooth INSIDE facing up. Orient the SandTrap with the BOTTOM EDGE facing TOWARD the drop. Pile sand on the center of the SandTrap. Pull the TOP EDGE over the sand and toward the drop to roughly line up with the BOTTOM EDGE.

Clip the FOUR (4) TIE IN POINTS to the rappel rope using a locking carabiner.

Place the SandTrap into a pothole, depression or dug pit close to the edge of the drop. Make sure that the “runout” is clear of objects and constrictions that could snag the SandTrap, or behind which the SandTrap could become jammed.

Clip the RETRIEVAL STRAP to the retrieval rope using a locking carabiner.

Set up a BACKUP SYSTEM to allow safe testing of the SandTrap as rigged without risk to the rappellers.

RAPPELLING FROM THE SANDTRAP AND RETRIEVAL

Rappel using minimum-force rappelling techniques. Observe the SandTrap as canyoneers rappel and add more sand or reposition the SandTrap if it appears sketchy. If concerned about retrieval, do a test pull to make sure the people below can successfully retrieve the SandTrap.

After everyone has rappelled, retrieve the SandTrap by pulling hard on the RETRIEVAL CORD. The cord bunches the center of the SandTrap and pushes the sand out the sides, at which point the empty SandTrap is pulled down to the waiting canyoneers. It may require a lot of pulling from below to get the retrieval process started, but generally once it starts, the retrieval proceeds with less force.

NOTES

Both the rappelling rope and the retrieval rope get very beat up in this process, especially the part near the SandTrap. Inspect these ropes often and change them out to spread the wear and tear around.

EVEN WHEN USED CAREFULLY, USE OF THIS ANCHOR SYSTEM CAN RESULT IN DEATH OR SERIOUS INJURY. STUDY EACH SITUATION CAREFULLY, MAKE SMART DECISIONS, LIVE TO CANYONEER ANOTHER DAY.

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To which I might add:

1. Testing and backing up is REAL important. A good reason to treat this as a TEAM event. Even once you have used it for awhile, it can surprise you, so it is essential to always always always carefully back up and test.

2. Good first SandTrap Canyon: No Kidding. Lots of placements, not too long or strenny, not pressed for time. Last time I went in to do it, it was really muddy, and we exited after the first rappel and taking an hour to get past 2 little potholes. Glad it had the exit available... :facepalm1:

Tom

Setting up your SandTrap for most efficient use and least rope grooves

I "set up" my SandTrap with 3 x 7mm Aluminum Rapides. One on each pair of anchor points, and one on the retrieval point. Then I clip the rope to these with a small locking carabiner. This seems faster than clipping the webbing each time with the carabiner.

On the retrieval side, I tie on a 10' length of 8mm rope, with a 3' piece of hose on it. When using, I tie the retrieval cord to the end of this. The hose decreases the force required to retrieve the SandTrap rather significantly, and helps considerably in avoiding making rope grooves. Using a piece of hose on the rappel side can help with the grooving, but with the loss of friction the forces on the trap are higher, so care must be taken to compensate for this and make sure the trap has more sand than without the hose.

I've gotten the trap stuck once, and Dan has gotten it stuck once. In the picture below, the trap got stuck on the chockstone, and Dan had to go back up and get it. The one I got stuck was on the last little drop in No Kidding, where the trap clenched around a little pinnacle. had to jug back up, refill and reposition the SandTrap, then had my partner test it from below, before carefully using it.

Tom

Tom,
Thanks for your input. It is invaluable. Again, thanks on the pics.This one shows how little an obstacle with which a trap can get caught.
Thanks also for posting the manufacturer's statement. It will serve as good background.
I can agree to call potshot/trap anchors 'retrievable', although not all retrievables are created equal. It is probably a different topic.

Mark,
Thanks for clarifying why the long tail. That is a very good way to back up any anchor without using extra equipment.
I feel comfortable with other 'retrievable' anchors once they have been adequately tested with backup, so traps shouldn't be any different.

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2. Good first SandTrap Canyon: No Kidding. Lots of placements, not too long or strenny, not pressed for time. Last time I went in to do it, it was really muddy, and we exited after the first rappel and taking an hour to get past 2 little potholes. Glad it had the exit available...

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Tom - Funny you mention mud in No Kidding. I am going there on Friday, and that is why I originally posed the question about mud in the shots and trap.

Rob

Great discussion - especially for us since we just bought a couple of potshots and want to start learning to use them. The photos are great - "a picture is worth a thousand words." Thanks for starting this, Penny. Looking forward to getting the potshots, Tom. The sandtrap will be next on our purchase list.

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Originally Posted by penmartens

Referencing the red words in the quote above, it sounds like Russian Roulette for the last person, i.e. lightest person, i.e. me. This sounds marginal and yet it is what I hear every time in connection with traps.

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On that note, I think I will have another donut!

Instead of connecting the pull rope directly to the Trap, has anyone tried tying a section of webbing between the Trap and the pull rope so that the webbing extends past the lip to avoid grooving? This will no doubt make the pull more difficult with the extra surface area on the rock, but the webbing should not groove near as much as a rope.

Goofball and No Kidding is one of the great mud stories around--a classic.
North Wash has had a very dry winter this year. Canyons are pretty dry. There was a wet snow storm a couple weeks ago, but I think its effects are gone.
I would expect No Kidding to be dry, but remembering Jason's descent I think I would take some potshots, also. They are more forgiving in mud. I believe there is a thread here about using potshots in a series. Forum Fox posted it, I think.
Good luck. Have fun.

Thanks Penny ... I am planning on taking both a sandtrap and potshots. I regularly use both. It was partly because of that story (Goofball) that I originally started the thread: [Help] Potshots/Sandtrap with mud???

Here is some great info with pictures on using Potshots in No Kidding... How many people use a board to stack them on?

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...-TR-No-Kidding

They work best in a certain geometry (If ground is level... between 100 and 170 degrees), so in some cases it could take a board to facilitate it.
Attachment 52155

Hmmmmm.

At that first big drop, where they talk about using a board, we usually bring a 200' rope to tie off and leave there, picking it up on the way back through. I was a little surprised to see them trying to stack potshots there. (The bad lip is on a pothole further down.)

I would say that stacking potshots for anchors is pretty tricky, and has a narrow "sweet spot". That is a big reason Steve W. came up with the SandTrap, because the stacked potshots was a very marginal technique.

That TR shows the technique pretty well. Stack up pot shots. Rappel off the bottom one. Retrieve by pulling them off the top one at a time. Sounds simple, but in practice, can be difficult to execute.

Tom

Seeing the stacking (which are great) makes me appreciate the sand trap all the more. I finally got to see the sand trap in action at Freezefest and it is so much easier, it appears, than stacking potshots. I would however take both the potshots and sandtrap in a canyon of unknown conditions, ie. mud.

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Originally Posted by PG Rob

Thanks Penny ... I am planning on taking both a sandtrap and potshots. I regularly use both. It was partly because of that story (Goofball) that I originally started the thread: [Help] Potshots/Sandtrap with mud???

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU32NUZRfRE

This is an idea I have been playing with since last year. The concept works, but the drybag needs to be larger. Also I have an idea to close the drybag but so that it opens easily on the retieval. Fill with water, roll the top closed, insert two tongues through loops(these are sewn on the drybag.) The retrieval rope is attached to these tongues, then continues around the Sandtrap in the normal manner. We used the drybag idea once in Colt 45, but the slope was too shallow....almost held when I went over the big drop. It does obviuosly work better on a vertical lip with lots of friction. I believe Tom and Jenny have been developing this "wanchor" concept as well, but I have been out of the loop in South America for the winter.

Thanks for the input so far. It is indeed enlightening.

Potshots:
-More versatile, can be tossed or used as anchor on up canyon side
-Can be filled with a variety of materials, i.e rocks, sand, mud, water
-Can be stacked although intensive with greater margin of error
-Simple setup for short drops
-Inexpensive to purchase

Cons:
Can be hard to empty
Can split on impact

Traps:
-Easy to dump
-1 trap= 1-6 potshots
-Setup is more straight-forward
-Easy to inspect, evaluate

Cons:
-More expensive initially plus requires accessories, i.e. hose, links or biners
-Geometrically sensitive placement


Both:
-Can fail without warning
-Need larger group to test
-May fail to empty completely causing harder pull or getting stuck
-May stick at obstacle or constriction

Can tarps be stacked?

Would anyone like to expound on jugging on shots/traps?

What are people using to prevent rope grooves? Is the hose being used universally? Are some using nothing? Something else?

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Originally Posted by penmartens

Thanks for the input so far. It is indeed enlightening.

...

Can tarps be stacked?

Would anyone like to expound on jugging on shots/traps?

What are people using to prevent rope grooves? Is the hose being used universally? Are some using nothing? Something else?

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Tarps stacked? Hmmmm. Certainly possible to stack potshots on top of a SandTrap for greater weight. Pot Shots also useful when sand needs to be moved TO the SandTrap. They both have their uses, SYNERGY!

I think the stacked Pot Shots are kinda obscure. Only the real tech-weenies will want to explore that avenue. The sweet spot on stacked Pot Shots is pretty small, and you really otta bring along a board in case the lip is obnoxious (but it can be filled with sand, if needed). The SandTrap has a much bigger sweet spot, and people grasp the parameters for safe usage much more easily.

Tom :moses:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PG Rob

They work best in a certain geometry (If ground is level... between 100 and 170 degrees), so in some cases it could take a board to facilitate it.
Attachment 52155

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What are geometry limitations of the Sandtrap?

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Originally Posted by canyondevil

What are geometry limitations of the SandTrap?

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The SandTrap works best if it is set into a depression, perhaps a shallow pothole, so that when you pull on the rappel rope, the Trap and its Sand has to move upward. Also, friction of the rope against the rock as it goes up and over a round edge decreases the force on the Trap.

If the pothole is too steep and deep, it can be hard to retrieve the SandTrap. Using the hose on the retrieval side can make the pull a lot easier, especially in a steep/deep pothole.

As the pothole gets flatter, the trap needs more sand. It can be used on a flat surface, but it takes quite a large pile of sand to get that to be strong. The normal form of the SandTrap is as a Taco; on a flat surface it is used more like a Tostada. Unfortunately, grains of sand act as a lubricant so the coefficient of friction is lower than it might be if the environment was clean.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by canyondevil

What are geometry limitations of the Sandtrap?

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On the other hand...

There are some geometric problems to avoid.

1. Tight narrows: if the SandTrap is bounded on both sides by canyon walls, then sometimes the sand does not spill out the sides, and the Trap cannot be retrieved. If this is the geometry available, usually the Trap can be moved further back, where the Trap can have 5-10 feet to dump out the sand before it gets into the narrows.

2. Stuff in the way: when cleaned, there is a lot of crap sliding down the drop. Ropes, fabric, straps and some sand. If there are places for the Trap to get stuck, it will. That picture of Anna rapping shows a chockstone in the way, that the Trap got stuck on. So it mainly is used in CLEAN sandstone canyons where there is plenty of sand and not many obstacles.

Tom :moses:

I think the last two posts were quite useful. thanks Tom :2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by ghawk

I think the last two posts were quite useful. thanks Tom :2thumbs:

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Agreed. Thanks Tom.

I just posted a Trip Report with how we used them today.

No Kidding w/Sandtrap and Potshots

Thanks for sharing your reasons for why shots and not traps. I have a few questions.
Would you give some details about stacking the shots? Why 6? Is that a magic number in some way? Do you have any tips on their usage? I see you didn't use a board.

Then, for comparison sake, has someone used a trap on the drops that PG Rob used the shots? With what results?

In general, it is best to set up as close to the drop as possible to ensure a clean pull and minimal to no rope grooves. A sandtrap has been used at every drop in the canyon. There are places where it works best, and places where I think potshots work best. You will notice earlier in the thread that the sandtrap was stuck on 2 of the drops. This was because it was set up in a compromised position (my belief).

I use 6 potshots for flexibility... You can load them up, or only fill them a little. With more, you are more versatile. If you only had a couple, you would regularly have to fill them to the brim, you likely would not be able to set up in the prime location, you are risking a clean pull and may cause rope grooving.

When stacking them, only the bottom potshot is connected to the rappel rope. It is important to remember the forces that are in play on the bottom potshot when weighted. It essentially is a wedge behind the other 5 which are for weight and friction. The bottom shot wants to pull in the direction of the rappel. The tools that are available to you are angle, friction and weight. It is essentially a multiplication formula. The greater the one, the lesser the others can be. When there is a low angle, try to maximize friction with the other shots and the rope, and fill the potshots more. When you have a better (more inclined) angle, you do not need as much sand in the potshots. You need to ensure that the friction and weight are in line (same direction) with the force that is on the bottom shot.

Since we took both a sandtrap and potshots, I thought it was not necessary to have a board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by penmartens

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Then, for comparison sake, has someone used a trap on the drops that PG Rob used the shots? With what results?

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Are we talking No Kidding? If so, we did the entire canyon during FreezeFest with a Sand Trap. Worked like a charm at every drop. No pot shots used.

Scott,
What did your group do, if anything, to avoid the problems that have been cited for No Kidding?
I am assuming that Spidey did the little down climb that PG Rob talked about. Anything else?

Penny,

You definitely can use a sandtrap at every drop. It is an amazing tool. It has it's place, along with all other tools. There are spots where it is the best tool and spots where it is better to use potshots.

Following is an example of a drop where it is better to use potshots. We already talked about how it is ideal to get as close to the drop as possible to have an easier pull and avoid rope grooves. You can see that the potshots can be set up almost right on top of the ridge. Notice the rope grooves next to the potshots. It is not practical to set up a sandtrap on the ridge. You would typically set up a sandtrap lower in the pothole and have to pull it up and over, which is likely what caused the rope grooves. Now, Tom's idea of using the garden hose can decrease the rope grooves and make for an easier pull of the sandtrap, but you still have an easier pull and no rope grooves with the potshots on the ridge.
Attachment 52241
Attachment 52240

It looks like we have pretty well covered this subject.
I am still wondering how often protection on the pull is being used for the trap. Are people using the hose? Are they using something else? Some have suggested using 1 inch webbing as a sleeve for the pull. I am wondering about a kevlar sleeve.
I see that Oldno is back. Do you have anything to add since your trip last week?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by penmartens

It looks like we have pretty well covered this subject.
I am still wondering how often protection on the pull is being used for the trap. Are people using the hose? Are they using something else? Some have suggested using 1 inch webbing as a sleeve for the pull. I am wondering about a kevlar sleeve.
I see that Oldno is back. Do you have anything to add since your trip last week?

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Most of the canyons where SandTraps are used are in very soft rock - therefore, using groove prevention devices should be part of the process.

We have tried using hoses, and it works part of the time, but is a pain. 3' of hose seems a good length. Splitting the hose so it could be put on the rope (rather than the rope passed through it) proved ineffective. I'll be working on a new solution to this, for release soon, I hope.

Tom

I see that PG only connected the rappel line to the bottom potshot and just piled the others on top. Wouldnt it be better to run the rap line through a rapide on each of the potshots (blocked on the bottom potshot) and pull the blocked side of the rap line through all rapides before pulling the potshots?