Piranha or BD ATC-XP?

Hello all. My apologies if this is covered somewhere already -- I did do a forum search, but I can be a bit clueless sometimes. Yes I'm one of those 'build systems and write software, but never could figure out the VCR or microwave' types...

So I was about to replace some wetsuit booties that I shredded hiking for riverboarding, and thought it might be a good time to pick up a canyoneering descender. I used my my Trango pyramid (ie ATC) in Pine Creek, but I'd rather get something better for smaller ropes before I rap any more 8.3.

Any advice on piranha vs. the ATC-XP? I'm very used to ATC-type devices from climbing, but if the piranha is better for canyons, I would get it. Thanks.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=251

It depends on personal preference. Piranha is nicer for wet disconnects and adding friction on the fly. Atc-xp is nicer if you are doing majority double strand rappels. Not mentioned but a totem probably combines the best of 8 & stitch plate (like tube) style devices.

Whatever your personal preference it’s best to know your device and how to pre rig friction and add friction on the fly. When I use a tube with small diameter rope I find it best to place two biners under the device on the high friction side and a redirect off my leg loop biner to add friction on the fly, or maybe a munter off in addition to the device.

Piranha it comes down to which horns I need to pre wrap for friction.

Haven’t met a big guy that likes the Piranha. They all have liked an 8 or tube styles.

Use the forum search function to find similar threads and debates.

I currently have both hanging on my harness. I go between them depending on the rap, length, friction needed, whether I am last down (rope twisting), etc. etc. I really don't have a preference. I will be exploring the Totem soon.

I've been having better luck with my piranha lately. It could be my technique, but when I load my ATC up on high friction the ride is choppy. I have trouble feeding the rope through. Then it goes too fast and I have to brake hard. Probably not explaining that right, but it just feels "sticky". On low friction for shorter raps using double ropes it works perfect. And of course for climbing my ATC works perfect. So my preferred now is the Piranha for shorter raps, then my Petzl STOP for longer raps when I'm first down with no belayer.

So I would vote for the Piranha. It just seems to have a smoother ride when setting higher friction and more options available. And you can change friction on the fly. Which for me is quite handy since I don't always make a correct judgement. I either do too much or too little. There is always variables, even the same diameter rope but a different brand feels totally different. Then you have to guess if it's wet or dry, and how sandy, etc. But since you are a climber, you might want to go ATC since you could have it multitask. There isn't a wrong choice IMO.

Pirana.

Given where you are at (ie, starting canyoneering, open to new equipment), seems like a good time to get on the Deluxe Program and go with a Pirana. I've used both extensively, and the Pirana is the more powerful device (speaking in software terms). The ATC-XP is a good device, and I use it when doing canyons with very few rappels because it is smaller, but the Pirana has additional benefits over the ATC. If you become a techno-geek-canyoneer, you will appreciate the quick tie-off, various friction settings and other novel ways of using the Pirana.

By the way, the Pyramid is NOT an ATC, and the ATC is not a tube-type device. The ATC is a displaced plate-type device, or a hybrid plate/tube device, but it is not a tube. (See what happens when you become a techno-geek canyoneer?).

Tom :moses:

thank you for including the CUSA category link. Which allowed me to review what I had written on these things (4 years ago?) and prompted me to re-write with more appropriate copy.

Tom

Thanks for all the feedback, and thanks Tom for pointing that out on the Pyramid / ATC differences :). I think I will give the Pirana a try. Hopefully I can get that order in pretty soon, and check it out at one of the local crags.

Hey Erik, I finally bought a Pirana on my last Utah trip, but never got a chance to use it. Finally got to do so today, in a flowing canyon - it was terrific! Really enjoyed the amount of friction on an 8mm single rope, and I'm about 195-200 lb. I did take my ATC-XP along, as I like to have a spare device, and it's my old standby, but I'm looking forward to continuing to use the Pirana. :2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by Cirrus2000

Hey Erik, I finally bought a Pirana on my last Utah trip, but never got a chance to use it. Finally got to do so today, in a flowing canyon - it was terrific! Really enjoyed the amount of friction on an 8mm single rope, and I'm about 195-200 lb. I did take my ATC-XP along, as I like to have a spare device, and it's my old standby, but I'm looking forward to continuing to use the Pirana. :2thumbs:

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Cypress? Trip Report? Pictures?

:moses:

I think I'll do Cypress this coming week sometime, actually. Today was "Last Exit for the Lost" with Chris. I'll have something up later, once I've done some sorting photos and videos and try to remember what happened... :2thumbs:

I'm not an expert like some of the other guys here, but I can't help but share my limited experience.

I was able to do a long rappel/lower out of Heaps this summer; it was 300' of free rappel. I loved the Pirana for that-- and about every other rap I've done on it. It's easy to lock off/tie off. It's easy to add friction on the fly. And it comes in black. (I wish I didn't have a fully functional Pirana so I could go buy that one.)

I also like the ATC-XP for belaying for climbing (I don't use it for canyons simply because I don't know an easy way to lock it off or add friction mid-rap), and I like the Totem for rigging for groups (using it as a joker contingency anchor) and I'm learning a lot of ways to use it.

You'll probably like whatever you buy and train on. Take a class and go with what that person likes. You'll learn their style and adopt their methods. Then, go take a class from someone else and figure out what they like and buy that one. Collect them all!:cool2:

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Originally Posted by Erik

So I was about to replace some wetsuit booties that I shredded hiking for riverboarding, and thought it might be a good time to pick up a canyoneering descender. I used my my Trango pyramid (ie ATC) in Pine Creek, but I'd rather get something better for smaller ropes before I rap any more 8.3.

Any advice on piranha vs. the ATC-XP? I'm very used to ATC-type devices from climbing, but if the piranha is better for canyons, I would get it.

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For skinny ropes in the 8mm range, especially in dry canyons, or, non-flowing water, I prefer the ATC. I think the Piranha really excells when used in wet canyons, on a 10mm rope.

ATC also doesn't care what locking (or non locking) carabiner(s) you use with it. A Piranha does. You'll need a dedicated biner, and, the correct one.

Kind of depends on what you get used to, though. With sandy skinny ropes, I'd be afraid of grooving out a Piranha (bit more spendy than an ATC?) and having to replace it fairly often, rather than replacing an ATC.

One thing that may or may not make a difference, an ATC can be rigged regardless of which side you prefer the rope coming out of. Not as much with the Piranha. So, if you're an ambi type person, an ATC works a bit nicer for either hand.

Be careful with a Piranha on a skinny cord, without playing with it a bit first. Its really wide open rigged for low friction.

-Brian in SLC

Honestly.... this question is like asking which is better...... Ford or Chevy..... Pepsi or Coke.... Blonde or Brunette....

....and the answers to all these questions carry about the same weight........

My thoughts are try them both and see which one you prefer.


http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1258405521

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

One thing that may or may not make a difference, an ATC can be rigged regardless of which side you prefer the rope coming out of. Not as much with the Piranha. So, if you're an ambi type person, an ATC works a bit nicer for either hand.
-Brian in SLC

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You do realize that you can flip the Pirana over right? Sometimes I'll rap left-handed just to keep my left-handed rappelling skills from getting too rusty... because sometimes there are situations where having your right hand free is very handy to avoid smacking a big rock that is on your right-hand side (The last drop in pine creek I'll do lefthanded sometimes) The benefit of sometimes going to your other side on the pirana is it lasts a tad longer because it wears grooves in the other side.

But you do have to take the pirana off the 'biner to switch which side you are rapping on.

Ryan

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Honestly.... this question is like asking which is better...... Ford or Chevy..... Pepsi or Coke.... Blonde or Brunette....

....and the answers to all these questions carry about the same weight........

My thoughts are try them both and see which one you prefer.


http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1258405521

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I propose a new competition similar to the "how many people can you fit in a phone booth" kind of competition... "How many rappel devices can you rig to one rope and still pull rope through somehow". If you could get 3 or 4 of those rigged up at the same time, I will give you a high-five. :clap::five:

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

I propose a new competition similar to the "how many people can you fit in a phone booth" kind of competition... "How many rappel devices can you rig to one rope and still pull rope through somehow". If you could get 3 or 4 of those rigged up at the same time, I will give you a high-five. :clap::five:

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To do so would require one to admit their weight - or lie.....:lol8:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Honestly.... this question is like asking which is better...... Ford or Chevy..... Pepsi or Coke.... Blonde or Brunette....

....and the answers to all these questions carry about the same weight........

My thoughts are try them both and see which one you prefer.

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Allow me to 'interpret':

In response to a request for discernment on a particular piece of gear used for canyoneering by those experienced with several or many of the devices; Mr. Ice clarifies that he has no discernment in this arena, and in general that the idea of people developing discernment is contrary to his personal philosophy.

"It's a crap shoot".

:moses:

Yes, you are correct, I need to go have a beer or two (or three)...

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Allow me to 'interpret':

In response to a request for discernment on a particular piece of gear used for canyoneering by those experienced with several or many of the devices; Mr. Ice clarifies that he has no discernment in this arena, and in general that the idea of people developing discernment is contrary to his personal philosophy.

"It's a crap shoot".

:moses:

Yes, you are correct, I need to go have a beer or two (or three)...

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Here.... allow me to interpret Tom's latest post; "Ice.... Chicks dig him and I'm jealous."

Tom's interpretation isn't even close..... probably a good idea if he sticks to something he is good at.... because translator is not it....

For those of you on the short bus.... What I was saying is take both devices out for a test drive and decide for yourself....

Feel free to stop by the house on your next trip and I'll be happy to lend you one of each to test drive....

Your pal Ice
Chevy, Pepsi, Blondes, ATC-XP

Would really like to try a Pirana; been finding it very difficult to hit the friction "sweet spot" on an ATC-XP on the CanyonFire, and I can see me becoming a convert if it solves that problem.

Maybe I'll borrow Zoe's and nip out to the local chalk quarry (See Sarah, see Sarah rap into the forest of pungent buddleia and elder trees, see Sarah swear, swear Sarah, swear) and see how I get on with it.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Here.... allow me to interpret Tom's latest post; "Ice.... Chicks dig him and I'm jealous."

...

Chevy, Pepsi, Blondes, ATC-XP

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Primary colours are where hair is at.

Just sayin'

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

...(See Sarah, see Sarah rap into the forest of pungent buddleia and elder trees, see Sarah swear, swear Sarah, swear)...

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:roflol: :clap:

There is also Sterling Ropes new rap device, the "ATS"Attachment 35861

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Originally Posted by sarahlizzy

Primary colours are where hair is at.

Just sayin'

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Not to derail this thread, but yes, chicks with primary color hair have a soft spot in my heart. :naughty:

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Originally Posted by Mojave Silence

There is also Sterling Ropes new rap device, the "ATS"Attachment 35861

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Oh I like the nice big horns on the top. Might have to give this one a go next year. I'm going to turn into a hardware junky like Ice I fear. :haha:

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Originally Posted by Mojave Silence

There is also Sterling Ropes new rap device, the "ATS"Attachment 35861

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I haven't seen that before. Don't see it at the Sterling site. No product site link?

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Originally Posted by Don

I haven't seen that before. Don't see it at the Sterling site. No product site link?

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I found the info on Sterling Ropes Facebook page. Its going to debut at Sterlings booth at the Outdoor Retailers show in Salt Lake next week, (Aug 3-6) and will be available retail through Sterling and Alpine Training Services following the show.

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Originally Posted by Mojave Silence

I found the info on Sterling Ropes Facebook page. Its going to debut at Sterlings booth at the Outdoor Retailers show in Salt Lake next week, (Aug 3-6) and will be available retail through Sterling and Alpine Training Services following the show.

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Cool - never been to their page. It looks like a Pirana in use. And I discover at the same time that there's now a 5.9 route all the way to the top of The Chief, in Squamish. Going to have to get back into climbing again...

Munters are great for a quick "wet disconnect" as well, and they twist a rope about as much as a piranah. ATC's work great and my choice; easy to tie off (haven't yet had a reason to tie off while doing a canyon), easy to add friction on the fly (pull harder on the brake hand), light, inexpensive and long lasting. Need to replace an inexpensive karabiner periodically though. But, But, But...here is what I'd like to try one of these days in a canyon .....Big Bucks though for the Ti!

http://www.scarabrescue.com/

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Munters are great for a quick "wet disconnect" as well, and they twist a rope about as much as a piranah. ATC's work great and my choice; easy to tie off (haven't yet had a reason to tie off while doing a canyon), easy to add friction on the fly (pull harder on the brake hand), light, inexpensive and long lasting. Need to replace an inexpensive karabiner periodically though. But, But, But...here is what I'd like to try one of these days in a canyon .....Big Bucks though for the Ti!

http://www.scarabrescue.com/

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Looks cool but yeah, pricey! :eek2:

That Scarab does look cool. Guess could always go with the steel for $100 less and be stronger. Well, that's what I try to tell myself when I have to carry heavy stuff...

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

Not to derail this thread, but yes, chicks with primary color hair have a soft spot in my heart. :naughty:

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Pink and Blue!

Alright so back on the original subject (but not as cool as the Anime 'blue' video), I did pick up an ATC-XP at a local shop today. Might get to play with it tomorrow.

I have typically always used an ATC-XP. I have one son who swears by the Piranha. I have another son who prefers the standard figure 8. We have each tried each others, and conclude that we are happy with our orignal choices. To each his own....

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Originally Posted by Mojave Silence

There is also Sterling Ropes new rap device, the "ATS"Attachment 35861

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Why can't you reply with quote and have the picture come along? Anyways did anyone see the ATS device at the outdoor show? Has anyone got one yet? Looks cool.

[QUOTE=moab mark;411399]

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Originally Posted by Mojave Silence

There is also Sterling Ropes new rap device, the "ATS"Attachment 35861[/]

Why can't you reply with quote and have the picture come along? Anyways did anyone see the ATS device at the outdoor show? Has anyone got one yet? Looks cool.

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Looks pretty good. I'll be checking it out in a few canyons over the next couple of days.

Tom

Does anyone know where to buy one yet?

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Does anyone know where to buy one yet?

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When they become available, I am thinking I will have them as soon as anybody else.

Tom

They look pretty cool but are they related to these guys?? ATS I hope not!!:nono:

Oops, it has their name right on it, didn't notice it the first time.:facepalm:

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Originally Posted by Pelon1

They look pretty cool but are they related to these guys?? ATS I hope not!!:nono:

Oops, it has their name right on it, didn't notice it the first time.:facepalm:

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Yes, and the name is intended as a pun, for those in the know.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

When they become available, I am thinking I will have them as soon as anybody else.

Tom

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Put me on the list.

I've used an ATC-XP almost exclusively, and really like it, though I've found that there isn't a way to add friction mid-rappel. Looking at this thread and others like it has alerted me to other options. That Sterling ATS device looks awesome. I've been drooling over it for a little while now.