FYI suspension trauma is normally only a concern with a motionless (usually unconscious) person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Printable View
FYI suspension trauma is normally only a concern with a motionless (usually unconscious) person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
WRONG!!Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
Averting suspension trauma is a major part of cave rescue, rope rescue and similar fields. Tests have shown that healthy, rested individuals sitting immobile in standard harnesses can lose consciousness in about 10-30 minutes. Individuals who are starting out unhealthy, due to exhaustion, injury, hypothermia, and so on, are at a greater risk. Because of this, if a person is found to be stranded in their harness, immediate action is required.
"Averting suspension trauma is a major part of cave rescue, rope rescue and similar fields. Tests have shown[citation needed] that healthy, rested individuals sitting immobile in standard harnesses can lose consciousness in about 10-30 minutes. Individuals who are starting out unhealthy, due to exhaustion, injury, hypothermia, and so on, are at a greater risk. Because of this, if a person is found to be stranded in their harness, immediate action is required." (Wikipedia)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Sorry, had to. I'll take experience over Wiki any day, I'd be interested in hearing it first hand.
I have heard it first hand (OldNo7 was there as well...) from Dr. Gordon Larsen, he is the medical director for Zion SAR. Give him a call he will be happy to tell you about it. He also works in the ER at Dixie Regional Medical Center. I should have clarified it in that post, that is why I felt good about putting that in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
immobile = motionless (sez me). testing is normally done w/conscious subjects who are asked to hang motionless for test purposes. If they did not remain motionless (i.e. moved about in the harness to relieve stress points), they would not be in danger of suspension trauma. I think that's the current understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Yes, I remember the conversation with Dr. Larsen. I also can vouch for his schooling(Dr. Larsen) He and I went to the same Jr. High in Bountiful.(enough vouching) I just happen to be a little older, he just happen's to be a LOT richer.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Funny thing about the good Dr. though--he doesn't wear a helmet, at least when we did a canyon.
Shane
I think we need some moderation in here. We have conversions,contingencies,
suspension trauma and I've lost track of the rest.
Whatever the good doctor knows, chances are it is found in the [pdf] article linked from this page:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_h...2/crr02451.htm
Some good winter reading!
I think doctors in America actually go to medical school, oh by the way he was doing some training with the Zion SAR and had a very close call with one of the "victims" that got him doing some research to verify what he witnessed...Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
:nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
I think we are lost in the wilderness. But hey it all ties back one way or the other to getting stuck on a rappel. :2thumbs:
Harness Suspension Trauma is a relatively new area of study and still poorly understood. It's unlikely that your Doctor learned anything about it during medical school unless he's a recent graduate. It's important to understand that the danger lies in hanging motionless in a harness. There was a big bruhaha a few years back in the rope access/fall protection industry due to a lack of understanding on this point. Some alarmist folks were saying that harnesses kill, don't ever fall in one, etc. etc. I am continuing to post in an effort to help educate on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Here is another good article on suspension trauma:
http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdf?v...0sessionmgr111
From what i have read, it appears the issue of suspension trauma is something that can definitely result from wearing a harness. However, I'm with Hank Moon on this one, the cause is motionless. It seems to me the scare of suspension trauma in a harness is rooted in the the scare of passing out. The article above claims that the normal flexing and movement of the legs relieves the threat of suspension trauma however if someone is stuck on rope a hundred feet up who knows how they will react? If they get so scared they freeze up, then yes blood would begin to pool in their legs and suspension trauma could set in. If they get so scared they pass out then they are really in danger.
You can trust me, I'm a first semester anatomy student.
If that were the case, I'd get "suspension trauma" every time I rock climbed...(!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelon1
Geez, look how long ol' Tony Kurtz hung in their on the Eiger. Maybe Longhi has the record for hangin' out, though, eh? Heck, he was even waving at passing planes...
Look at how long those poor, poor lads who solo big walls in remote places (Dave Turner, Mike Libecki) hang in their harnesses. Shoot, 20 to 30 DAYS.
Its pretty rare. And, I seem to recall from reading about it in Off Belay or some such years ago (related to a caving death), happens to folks suspended and unconscious.
Hank's got it. Wiki, well, its usually pretty reliable. Usually.
-Brian in SLC
The wiki article USED to say that, without citation. Citation to a personal conversation is not a WP:RS. The intro also said:Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
My, my, I must be especially faint-resistant, because I can stand for a long time, just like Secretary Rumsfeld!!! Yes, people put ludicrous things in the wiki, and people like me take them out. (hmmmmmmmmmm. uh... never mind).Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Tom :moses:
At the Bountiful Jr. High Medical School? :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
:moses:
And if you are wearing just a seat harness, and go unconscious, other very bad things happen to you (in most cases, I suspect) before the suspension trauma comes into effect. This is why the UIAA strongly recommended use of a chest harness for many, many years; which almost everyone ignored. Lots of dead bodies? well, no - because people don't often go unconscious hanging on the end of a rope without some other serious problem involved, often fatal. But if they do, you want to get them down right away!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
Tom :moses:
vive le chop!Quote:
Originally Posted by madwordchopper
Surely you jest. Need I list other qualification? Based on the first responder card I carry with me I am set apart as one certified to asses an emergency, give o2 (crucial), and wait for advanced EMS. Tom Tom, I'm no rookie... :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Is that a new calling at the local LDS ward?Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
:lol8:
aw man, and I put so much thought into that one! i'm just not quick enough :haha: i can't wait for freeze fest!Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs
What?? Are you kidding me-----Bountiful Jr. Highs medical program was a bust.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
All the real ejukatin' was at Millcreek.....Take me for example....
ah, never mind, don't do that. :haha:
Awesome! Want to be chief medical officer on the new secret canyon rescue squad? :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
From http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_p...2/crr02451.pdfQuote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
1.2 ORTHOSTATIC SYNDROME AND ORTHOSTATIC SYNCOPE
Orthostatic syndrome and its causes are well known in the medical field. Standing up quickly or for periods without moving can cause a person to feel dizzy, nauseous, to have hot flushes and unusual sweating and to faint. When fainting occurs in this kind of situation it is known as orthostatic syncope. Orthostatic syncope is quite common and is said to be related to the current state of evolution of the human being, in that we have not yet totally adapted to standing upright. In certain circumstances, the effects can be serious and can lead to death. A well-known example of orthostatic syncope is that of the soldier who faints while stood to attention for any length of time. The moment the soldier loses consciousness, he collapses and becomes horizontal. Therefore, the time spent in a vertical position while unconscious is minimal. This has a significant bearing on the result of the collapse. Assuming no injuries caused during the collapse of the soldier, return to consciousness will ensue quickly and recovery is likely to be rapid. If a person is suspended in a harness in a situation in which the legs are immobile, for example, due to injury after a fall, there is no such
I have the feeling I'm not being taken seriously. Doesn't 1 semester of college and 1 article reading qualify me to be medical adviser :ne_nau:Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
I've been on Oprah too. I think she can grant degrees :five:
Anyways, I bow out. I've pulled it too off subject
Ahem. Oh well, guess I have to explain the joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
Kurty said he could vouch for Dr. X's credentials since they went to Bountiful Jr. High together... which I assume he meant jokingly, but it does imply that Bountiful Jr. High has a Medical School....
Ok, it's always a bad sign if I have to explain my jokes.
I've got one of those cards too, though mine says WFR, does not include administering O2, and I hope to never REALLY use it. You carry O2 in your car? Most likely situation for both of us is first-on a car accident. Missed out on this one, as no significant injuries (I hope, missed the potential cervical fracture:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0808yo/index7.htm )
T :moses:
Ok ya got me, I caught on that it was a joke though I hadn't made the connection - hadn't read each post thoroughly. Still the chance the dendrites wouldn't have fired.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Maybe I need to offer some explanation to my responses. I hope I haven't been taken seriously. I have simply been poking fun at my lack of experience in the medical field. Plenty of 1st semester anatomy and emergency response students here off diagnosing when they shouldn't be, ergo me claiming to know all about suspension trauma when I only know as much google tells me. Its all good.
Anyway, that looks like a pretty nasty wreck - especially to just drive up on. I'm with you, I sure hope I never have to use it but it is nice to know I have some skills, though few in comparison to further trained, to help out. I don't carry o2 in the car, I will shortly. I just passed the exam. I'm not sure what Wilderness First Response covers, however there was plenty a time when my proff explained that we as normal first responders don't do that (whatever technique might have come up) then went on saying a WFR course would help. So I am assuming the skills list is a tad longer on your end. As for o2, that was probably the easiest thing we learned (another poke at myself to explain my lack of experience in earlier posts). Based on your willingness to turn around and offer help if needed to the car wreck I'm sure you know your stuff pretty good. They were lucky to have you there had something more threatening come about.
Jaden
Alrighty, to continue the jesting and "poking fun at [your] lack of experience in the medical field." I first have to quote you below, then offer my funnynessssssssesQuote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
Technically, as myself a 1st year anatomy student as well (and at Weber, just like you) and I'm a state-certified EMT-I just for bragging, you should know that dendrites don't send the signal, as you imply they do,e.g. "wouldn't have fired." The Neuron, sends the signal to the axon, via the axon terminal, and then there are branches of dendrites waiting to receive that signal. That's it in a nutshell.Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
Did you have Chung or Myers for anatomy @ Weber, just curious.
Alright, time for me to end my /smartass-ness
BTW, a first-responder is a good-start, but my solicited advice would be to advance and continue you up the EMT ladder. The EMT-B program is a awesome start and has greatly complemented my anatomy knowledge. I took it down at Dixie State College and it was a 9 credit class, M-W-6pm-10pm and some saturdays. I'm sure Weber offers something similar. Worth looking into if you can spare the time and $1000 (covers tuition).
Nutshell accepted haha good catch, the nervous system never was a specialty however I did really like sodium potassium pumps! And I think I keep digging a deeper hole, but I'm actually in Biomed Core so anat/phis together. I just didn't think anyone would know what that class was. The advisor told me to take it as a warm up, anat with Chung (hopefully) for my next semester. Gotta maintain a 3.75 for money, no messing it up first semester.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
And thats good advice, I'll have some time while I wait to be admitted into the nursing program (and deeper and deeper). I've thought about going the emt route, thanks for more assurance.
Sodium-Ka pumps = pain. Pain is interesting all by itself. Anywho...Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
Nice stuff, the Biomed Core route is okay, if its NOT pre-professional/med. If it is, you have to retake anatomy and physiology...that's what I learned, the hard way. But thanks to Chere, AKA blueeyes, she created a plan for myself in CLS...very cool! I took Biomed Core from Naylor and she was a great professor. Very helpful!
And yes, Chuang is the better professor to take anatomy from.
A murse huh? If you can live with the torture for LIFE from your colleagues, then more power to ya! hehe
Your right, Bio Med doesn't transfer too well. I'm excited for anatomy, can't wait for cadavers. blueeyes is sweet! CLS is such a cool field, I've thought about it but Nurse Anesthetist is still pretty attractive to me. As for dealing with torture, hopefully the Anesthetists don't get quite as much, but until then I find internet forums offer a nice amount :haha:. Bummer I didn't find out you were at Weber till just now, you would have been more than welcome to come on the trips we went on during the semester. Anyway, good luck with finals if your not finished yet - I hope some day your the boss at the lab my samples go to! :rockon:Quote:
Originally Posted by jman
"Skills list" yes, actual experience applying it, no. I was so relieved that Fred was not messed up, that I did very little, when I should have been anticipating the hour wait for the EMTs, and the soon-to-arrive shock. The good thing is he called it in himself, so things were already rolling. Rural Nevada, very rural, even by Utah standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiecutter
The next car to pull over was a fire fighter and a Emergency Room nurse, so I was able to hand off care (or lack thereof) quickly. I now carry a large first aid kit, two foam pads and two blankets in my car - what we needed, and what we had by happenstance (less the large first aid kit).
T :moses:
I suppose the lesson there for me is to put similar items into my car now as well. I don't envy your situation, but I am glad firstly that it turned out alright, secondly that you came away from it with pertinent experience to pass on to others. Thanks for sharing the experience, and the tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
Jaden