TR:Lime Creek Area Pt.4

Nathan somehow talked me into going back to the cave we visited last time we were in the area. I was slightly reluctant but willing, mainly because I was told we would go to fixin next weekend. Come to find I'm leaving for Ohio next weekend after all was said and done. Oh well, I'm glad I got talked into it anyway.

This cave is pretty hardcore in our opinions. That is one thing we both agree on, we aren't going back again with out atleast 3-4 days and proper gear/apperal. We want wet suits, and thick neoprene booties and gloves super slim packs and possibly coveralls made for caving that are waterproof! It could be a while considering all of our economic sittuations, we're saying a year but who knows.

Anyway, we decided to take off Friday evening after work. We drove out, and started hiking at about midnight. Our friend was supposed to come meet us on Saturday evening or Sunday morning, and he had never been to the cave before. This meant that Nate and I would need to mark the way for him as it's not a regular trail that we take. I could not even put it into words how to find it at this point in time. So off we go in the dark flagging the path as we wandered. We got I'm guessing 1/3 to 1/2 way there by 3:45 in the morning and decided we needed to sleep. We tossed our pads and sleeping bags on the ground and passed out once inside them.

We woke up after catching maybe 4 hours of sleep, knowing very well that there was a very long day ahead of us. We ate quickly and took off. We were moving a little faster because we could see, but flagging the trail and wearing extra heavy packs still made us move like slugs.

We easily found our way up to the cave. I walked right to it this time, but it was still 12:00 when we arrived. Which is pretty close to the same time we arrived last time starting the hike around 8 am and wasting time wandering lost in the woods trying to find the hole. There is not much of an advantage to starting at midnight I guess. The only thing that was different this time was that we had a camp right at the entrance and we could pop out as late as we wanted and not have to drive home and go to work the next/ same day(depending on what time you popped out, as last time we camped near the road on Saturday night and went caving Sunday).

We set up the tent and ate lunch and passed out for about an hour or 2, dropping in at around 2:30 or so.
Looking down the first drop:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition042.jpg
Looking back up it from below:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition044.jpg
Looking towards the seccond drop:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition043.jpg
Hanging out on the second drop looking down:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition045.jpg

The 1 or 2 other drops were less significant then this last one so I didn't bother shooting them. I think it's probably around 100' of vertical relief from the start of the pit to the floor. We decided to shoot some pictures of this feature just up hill of the bottom of the pit, despite already having 3 shots of it that I really like. Well now I have 3 more:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition046.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition047.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition048.jpg

We decided it would be best to check out the passage that continued in this direction as we didn't check it out much before and it was something new to see closer then we would have to go in the other direction. I had a feeling it wouldn't be much and sure enough it just squeezed out before going more then 1-200'.

So down we went, and we came across this long steel bar diagonally crossing a passage to the left. I decided I wanted to check the bar out more this time and tried to move it to find it's cemented in place! I find it ironical that eleitest cavers preach leave no trace so much but yet they break shit on accident, leave flagging tape everywhere(litter IMO since they are the only ones who know what significance a specific marker might have), and modify the cave environment by bringing metal and concrete in to be left permanently! The strange part is that both Nate and I thought we could still squeeze through but we didn' bother.

I left my backpack after a little while when it seemed it was becoming too much effort to carry.
We continued down just carrying the rope and wearing our descent and ascent gear untill we arrived at the waterfall rap. Up to this point we could hand line a fixed line or down climb the first 2 drops beyond the entrance pit. That was not an option for this stretch as the rope was hanging out in space so to speak.
So we descended the rope with our gear this time:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition049.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition050.jpg

There are some cool preserved animal bones down below the rap:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition051.jpg
We continued down to the point where the creek flows under the large damn flowstone formation and you have to go over it and squeeze through a hole on the back side. I got a picture of the cool drapery formations under the damn:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...onition057.jpg
Also the hole you squeeze through on the back side of the damn:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2470.jpg

We continued down stream for a while seeing alot of what we had already seen on our last trip.
I know we saw this last time but I couldn't help myself:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2474.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2477.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2480.jpg
We continued down a little further and came to the point where we turned around the previous trip.

It required you to crawl in the trickeling stream of water for who knew how long at that point. So on we went crawling in the water, most times it was really un-avoidable. You get pretty soaked army crawling in water.

I'm not 100% sure if these shots were before or during the creek crawl but they fall in line in the order of things right in that area:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2483.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2484.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2485.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2487.jpg

I know for sure these were in some stretch of the creek crawl as I can see the water:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2488.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2490.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2491.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2492.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2496.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2497.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2499.jpg

The crawling seemed to last a while I would guess maybe around 500' with different ceiling heights through out. I would estimate that the ceiling pinches down so low you have to army crawl for about atleast 1-200' of the passage.

Eventually you see these and a way to pinch through beneath them:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2501.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2502.jpg

After that you encounter a drop that's about 6' into an open chamber which is probably best to jump down into as your right above the soda shop and a false swing of a limb during trying to down climb could be devistating!
The soda shop with magnificent straws reaching around 4' and connecting to the floor in a few places:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2504.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2505.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2510.jpg

We continued down the stream some more and saw more cool stuff:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2511.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2513.jpg
These were just a part of a much bigger feature, which was like a clearish white flowstone waterfall!
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2515.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2516.jpg

I caught a view of some awesome crystals growing in a shallow pool of water. The first image is cool as I caught 2 different very clear sets of ripples in the water:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2517.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2519.jpg

We continue on down stream and the stream meanders for a little bit so we get to take the path that is dry for once. We see some more cool stuff along the way to a junction:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2522.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2525.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2526.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2527.jpg
We had passed survey markers into the A 90's up to this junction.
There was a passage up to the left and a passage continueing down to the right where the water continued to flow. At this junction the passages seemed to become a little bit more spacious more frequently which was nice.

The A survey continued down I beleive to A 104 and after that I think another stream came in from the right. The left up stream trending passage broke off into a new "B" survey.
If I remember correctly Nate and I went down the right passage to just beyond where the other stream ran into the cave. At that point Nate was exhausted but I wanted to see more so I kept going. Another stream ran in from the right side down below I'm pretty sure (I think that's where the C survey started), and the water was starting to get very much deeper in places. I had crossed 4 largish ponds around knee to waist deep and say 5-7' in diameter. I kept going and so did the cave and the stream. It didn't seem like it was going to end and I knew I had to get back to Nate so I stopped around survey marker C 19.

Infact it just seems like it's going to get bigger with the extra water volume being added the deeper I got. It reminds me of main drain in Utah in the sense that it seems like it drains many high alpine meadows into lime creek canyon most likely. It seems like it could be one of the biggest caves in the state.

We came back up and checked out the B survey.
The B survey area was remarkable, like nothing I've ever seen for sure I'll let the photo's do the talking I'm pretty sure these all came from the B survey area even though we only went upto around B8 or B9. Also notice how many are shot with the flash as they were so colorful we didn't really need to play with the lighting to make the shot's less dull. Red, orange, yellow, blue, black, brown, tan, white and clear were all out and even some of them co-mingeling. I'm pretty sure most all of these came from the B Survey or junction vicinity however there is a chance some could be from the Lower A survey or even less likely the C survey.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2528.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2529.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2531.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2532.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2533.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2535.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2538.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2539.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2542.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2544.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2547.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2548.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2550.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2551.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2555.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2557.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2558.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2559.jpg

I know for sure this shot is just beyond where we stopped in the B survey, the B survey seems to keep going also, maybe upto the passage with the cemented steel bar as they are both on the same side of the main flow passage.
More awesome photos from near the junction most likely:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2562.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2563.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2565.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2567.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2569.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2570.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2571.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2572.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2573.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2574.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2575.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2576.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2578.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2582.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2584.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2585.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2586.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2587.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2592.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2595.jpg
I'm pretty sure from here on is formations I passed and didn't shoot on my way down from the soda shop. So they are from on our way out comming back up to the soda shop from the ABC junction area:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2596.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2597.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2600.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2603.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2605.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2607.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2608.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2614.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2616.jpg

Back to crawling up through the creek again:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2619.jpg
It was messed up I kept crawling in the water even after it was capable to stand up and squirm sideways. I don't know why it just seemed easier then contorting sidways throught the narrow slot above me.
Back up the waterfall I ascend the rope:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2623.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2627.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2631.jpg

Nearing the end of the climb back up the waterfall:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2635.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2636.jpg
Looking back down:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...g/IMG_2638.jpg

We raced for back for the entrance which still took a while. We hand lined all the ropes up and out of the cave from that point and popped out at the tent around 10:30PM. We took off our wet clothes and brought everything that needed to stay dry in the tent and put on some nice warm clothes to sleep in. We passed out but were rudely awaken by a menacing storm above our heads I'm guessing around midnight or 2 am.
I was thinking we were going to get struck by lightening considering how close it seemed to be striking (above our heads). Not to mention we are most likely the only living creature around and being just off the side of a meadow in some scattered trees around tree line made the odds stack up against us. I decided there wasn't a damn thing I could do to improve my chances of surviving the possible strike so I might as well just go back to sleep and get some rest. No use stressing over something you can't change.

We woke up to a gloomy morning but tried to get moving. No sign of our friend that was supposed to be meeting us. We were actually thankful however as we had our asses kicked and you couldn't pay us to go back in a hole in the ground at this point in time. We had patchy sunshine for a few hours so we ate and lounged and let things try to dry out a little before we packed up and headed back down the way we came up so we could clear all the flagging we had left for our friend. We got back to the car around noon in perfect timing before a storm let loose on us. We were happy that we were going to be home early for once, only to be dissappointed. We sat in traffic for 6 hours on the way home when it should only take 3.

All in all it was an awesome trip considering it was kinda a mixed bag. We saw some amazing features, and I can now see why some people consider it to be world class. I was also quite humbled, and came to realize that this cave is not for everyone (alot of cavers included I'm sure). There is an extremely high risk associated with this cave considering the skills and equipment required to travel through vertical terrain aswell as wet crawls. The risk for hypothermia is a serious one as your 3 miles from your car and no one could help you in time even if they could find you or by chance you had the cell service to make the call in the first place. Not to mention it's high alpine and cold already, you also have a good chance of getting clobbered by a high intensity storm. You will be soaked apon exiting the cave most likely so bring pleanty of extra dry clothes and rain gear / tarpage to keep everything extra and crucial dry.

You've been warned, if you somehow find this cave and decide to enter with out the proper skills or equipment then you just might die. Please be responsible and let's fight to keep this cave open for future generations of non grotto members or even just cavers in general!

I hope you enjoy the read and pictures, post us some comments!
:2thumbs:

Nice trip report! :2thumbs: Beautiful pictures this time. I like the pictures without the red lighting. Looks more natural! Those formations have plenty of color on their own.

I haven't read it yet. I got mezmorized by the pretty pictures and had to check them all out First, I also can't say what I really think our they would probably just delete it. So I won't

THAT CAVE IS FREAKIN AWESOME !!

Nice trip report!! Love those pictures. :2thumbs:

Man, you're making me want to come to Colorado!! Very cool cave

Come on over. :nod:

Hell yea Jeff,
come on out this way. I'm sure the offer will always be on the table.

I'm suprised that the Deep Creek Tr got more attention then this one, I think this one is way better. :nod:

..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caverdan

Their annual party is being held in Debeque this weekend. You guys should all crash it.

---

Actually, Dan, we're going caving instead! :roflol:

Thanks for the invite Dan, I actually stumbled across the coords and directions last night randomly. I'm not much of a partier or socializer however and I'm looking to see some cool stuff this weekend, so claystone caves in debeque is out.

Like MC said were going caving instead! You mad rats are welcome to crash our trip if you want. We'll be in the Deep Creek Canyon area somewhere.... Not 100% sure yet but it sounds like maybe Wednesday afternoon, Thursday morning, Premonition and Fixin' to Die are all possible options (I think ultimately we will go back to premonition to find the goods, and dig if needed). I was pretty pissed last time to have driven all that way to see nothing at all in that cave, so if we dig I think we'll leave the passage open. We'll be heading out friday night, MC will be caving with us Saturday, and we're going to go caving on Sunday aswell with out the company of MC.

BTW I'm curious if anyone besides Vader and MC know what cave this is, so do you? PM if you do.

Also where the hell are all the other Colorado cavers(I know this is a utah forum and all but the colorado forum seems way less active and I can't even register as I tried last night for over an hour)? Seems alot of them know about my reports but none of them dare to comment or talk to me? I hear I was even talked about at the last colorado cave survey meeting.

Also what is the deal with people keeping information from us about places we've already been? I had tried to figure out where we have been in Fixin' to Die through Vader but he got denied information... What's the harm in telling us where we've already been??? We got to the emergency cache on one trip, it's funny I can't find any info on where the cache is even. :ne_nau: Stupid eletists. I sure hope some other cavers (besides those who have already befriended our group of new cavers like Vader and MC) can show us that their not all a bunch of punks with their heads up their..... Just cause were not part of your stupid clubs and secret society's doesn't mean we're not worthy cavers. Reach out for god sakes and help out the new guys instead of trying to shun us like a bunch of jerks.

I can see why Vader has done what he has, and if things don't change I'll be a leader for that cause. I have already suggested a database where users can contribute their own info. It'd be pretty hard to fight a community of non grotto/ NSS members posting caves instead of just one or two guys (BTW I have friends that are web page developers so I can make it happen even without Vader running the page). I've also thought about clearing all flagging found in a cave; it doesn't benefit me, and as far as I'm concerned it's litter!

Hell of a way to make friends and influence people right? Well I'm not saying I'm going to do it for sure. I'm just saying if people want to be jerks we can fight fire with fire. And just so any of you eletists know I will not be threatened by violence, Nate is a hardcore ninja and he won't stand for it! So let's be friends (and be mature) instead of heading down the ugly war path. :blahblah: End RANT!

That ought to stir up the pot eh Vader!

CaverDan, this is not pointed at you BTW. I'm happy you reached out atleast, I'm just trying to get the message out there. We're new to caving and we like to do things on our own accord, that shouldn't prevent us from getting the same information. We all come from backgrounds that lend to caving, such as climbing (I even do hard aid), canyoneering, mountaineering, hardcore snowboard/ski mountaineering, and backpacking.

We all understand how a code of ethics works coming from such backgrounds, and we support being good stewards of the land, cleaning up after others and leaving no trace as much as possible. We also know about calculating risk and traveling into the unknown safely or not at all. We understand that certain caves demand special attention and skills to be traveled, some caves involve alot of comittment. We can probably handle about any challange we encounter and if we didn't feel 100% confident in our abilitys then we would not accept the commitment and we would go home and come back when we are.

Also Nate is really into mineralogy, he would never steal or break a specimin (nor would any of us for that matter, I just use him as an exampe as you would think if anyone out of the group would remove something it would be the guy who's a gem and fossil collector). He (and everyone else with us) understands that everything is protected like a national treasure and is very good at keeping everything safe by spotting everyone through tight spots near features. We respect and love the caves, what more is needed?

..

..

Dan, I'd love to hit you up on a breezeway trip.
We're actually not from Utah, but more like Evergreen/Conifer Colorado.
I post over here because I found it being a canyoneer, and I saw there was a caving forum so once I started caving I just started posting here as I didn't know about the colorado forum. I now know about it but I cannot register for the life of me.

You mad rats seem like you could be alright, aside from burrying passage. I can see the humor in it I guess but being the victim I can attest it's cruel. I guess the lesson is never go caving without being prepared for a dig.

I'm sure you can count almost any of our group in to help find stuff from time to time, we stumbled onto a hole that might be virgin already. I have a feeling it flows into the cave in this TR however, that might be nice if it cuts off alot of the cave we've already seen and short cuts us to where we left off. Who know's if it even goes as we never even went in.

Finding new stuff is exciting we're all about that for sure.

Hope people remember it's about the CAVE not the EGOS involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caverdan

As far as the old cavers not sharing info.....well......that's why we have madrats running all over the place.

---

How are madrats any different? You still have a few madrats that will not share information. Madrats are no different than any other caving club except they don't have to deal with NSS BS. You still have a core group of members/friends/elitists who will share info with eachother but not neccessarily new members. You can say that anyone who dares to attend is invited, but not all the time. What about the 2007 "private" madrat party? Madrat parties are more like local NSS conventions without the NSS. Don't get me wrong. Madrat parties are a lot of fun but you still have the same people there who are attending the grotto mettings. And to bury a passage so that someone else cannot find it creating eliticism.

I like the cave database idea. It could be like the database that the Colorado Cave Survey is putting together except people will be able to access it without signing confidentiality waivers and bs like that. What a great idea! I can see maps, locations, directions, advice and all kinds of things that would help the new caver get started without having to deal with the secret societies.

..

MANNNNNNN......... :frustrated: Every body is going caving this weekend except me :frustrated: That SUCKS :frustrated:

Well said Dan / forum8fox.

Let me get on my soap box for a minute

Forum8fox: I don't think you stirred the pot, I think you tipped it over. I think your Trip reports are what caving is all about. I love reading them. Glad MC caver and Caversr4all could help you out. CR4A is going to be going under a little update sometime here in the future. It would be nice to have another website out there. A little friendly competition. :five: I usually get e-mails from a caver or two every week through cavesr4all looking for information. For some reason CR4A has been getting several cavers contacting the site lately for information. Maybe it's just that it's the end of the year and every body is looking to get out and go caving. If you had a site where new cavers or old ones could share new and old discoveries / Areas ridgewalked, what they found and didn't find and maps, I would be a poster for sure. Maybe something like a small discussion board so people could share info. I would send everybody who I talk to at CR4A over to you as well. I think your motives for starting a site would have to be pure. If you are starting a site just to get back at the Elitist cavers, Well I don't think that would be very satisfying. If you are really looking to expand your knowledge of caves and help other people out That's the way to do it. When I started CR4A I had 30 caves on the site. Now there are about 140. You'll find many of the people you help out are really cool. I have started several friendships that I still have. There are several other things I could say about the site, but this thread isn't about that. By the way did I mention your Trip Reports are Awesome!

CaverDan: Glad to see you made it here. I wasn't sure if any other Colorado Cavers were still reading this forum. I got to say a few years ago when organized cavers wouldn't give me the time of day, CaverDan was there. He showed me the ropes and taught me how to get around in organized caving. Of course he pretty much shut me down when it came to posting Geocaches in caves. LOL. Now I am involved in Colorado caving politics and hold a few offices. I would like to think because of CR4A and cavers like Matt and Jason we are starting to effect Colorado caving politics. About 4 years back when I thought most organized cavers were out to get me CaverDan talked me into showing up at a cave rescue seminar. The only reason I showed was so I could meet up with him. Going to that training was one of the best things I ever did. I made dozens of contacts, figured out who the good cavers were and the cavers you want to stay away from and not to mention I went to the most useful training ever! Jason, If you get a chance to go up to Breezeway with CaverDan don

You know Dan you and MC sure have a way of persueding me (you are like my only mentors so...BTW thanks for reaching out and helping us guys!). I'm really thinking it would be pretty cool for sure. I'm going to have to start looking into what it will take to make this happen, I will have to be in touch with you (and my other web developer friends) in the next couple of weeks to talk logistics. I think my motivations are pure, I like to help people.

For instance on MountainProject.com I have contributed enough to be in the top 100 out of thousands of users. I didn't post any of that up to piss people off or stroke my ego, I did it because I think information should be available.

Sure I have some spite for the elietest. But considering how much more information and other people to go caving with I will attain from doing it. That is really way more motivation then pissing off elietests. So since you can't share I will get the info on my own from people who will and so will anyone else who want's it!

To give an idea what I will be shooting for take a look at mountainproject.com for climbing.

Sorry caverdan, I think we're pretty set on our plans. Deffinately let us know about any breezeway opps.

You know I have been thinking for a while, shortly after I started talking to vader. I had a premonition that I would be a key figure in the colorado caving revolution(Ie. making information available for anyone who want's or needs it).

I think the motto should be something along the lines of "If you have spite for eleitest cavers like us: don't go breaking the cave to get back at them, Expose OUR Colorado caves to the public!"

I think ultimately I would like to make it like a community for anyone who wanted to be part of it, we could be like mad rats but different. Ogranized community functions open to all and run by members. No strick regulation of information or beurocratic hierarchys. People free to do as they please on their own agenda like it should be.

I think education will be an important part, Also no un-registered users viewing any content. To be responsible it should be tracked who's been viewing what incase something happens, our source can trace possible criminal suspects if they got information from our site.
To avoid phoney accounts with blocked I.P addresses we could make all members submit as much proof as possible that they are who they say they are, and mail Username and passwords to them to a physical address to make it harder for them to fake(Backgroud check style, PITA but probly necessary for user accountability).

Also We're going to need a cave rating system type thing so people can know what to expect aside from descriptions and comments.

WOW! This is going to be crazy. Any and All input will be great. Myabe PM me or E-mail me so we don't send this thread off on a tangent.

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Yea the motto can use some tweaking, I just put it in the simplest terms I could for the time being since it was like 2 in the morning and I hadn't put much thought into it prior. I guess I was just trying to make a point that I think cave vandals are a direct result of cavers being a bunch of jerks. I have a hard time imagining someone going to caves just to break stuff with out some other motive then to just break stuff that's beautiful!

Anyway as far as the ratings go I was just throwing it out there because as a climber and canyoneer I use ratings to decide what I want to do alot of times. Just like you mention different caves pose different risks and why not have a system to differentiate between different caves, they aren't all the same you know? Cavers are just a bunch of cavemen in alot of aspects it seems.

I bet the reason very few people are into caving is cause they don't know there is even caving in Colorado aside from the commercial opps (A direct result of the secrecy I'm sure). I bet if I do a site there will be alot more new cavers coming onto the scene.

Hell you can't even get guide books without being part of the community so how would you even know what your missing? And that's why it's pure BS, excluding people before you even know them.

Have a great weekend and let's keep the dialog going, maybe we should just start a new thread hu?

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What caves are in it?
I'm not sure what you mean about that last part, I don't know you from Adam? I have a friend named Adam that went caving with us once, I never really mentioned him recently.

How'd the party go?

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Sounds like an average MadRat party. They are a BLAST . Wish I was there, but the twins kept me running in circles all weekend. I won't miss it next year!

More single ladies then men showing up sounds pretty awesome, hopefully there were some cute ones. I guess if you guys throw it some where cool next time(no offence I'm just not going to drive that far to see a claystone cave with no features) I would be totally down to go. BTW where and when is the meeting?

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