A Helpful Guide - to Poaching Canyons

Not that I'd ever consider poaching a canyon.... but if I did this might be my guide....

Wear earth colored clothes.
When visible stay low profile.
When visible be quick.
Don't flash canyoneering equipment in parking lots and traiheads.
Don't wear canyoneering clothes.
Look like a dumbass tourist
Canyoneer early or late in the day
Canyoneer in the off season
Be quiet
Don't brag about your exploits.
Sleep outside the park
Be cool when the shouting starts
Act stupid
Act innocent
When operating near the Subway learn when the rangers patrol and avoid them.

..... just sayin'....

:flipa:

Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence. It is one of the primary tactics of nonviolent resistance.

:bert:

Come to think of it, I have never poached a canyon either, but I am definitely not opposed to it. On the other hand, when it comes to roads such as the muddy river gorge... :popcorn:

Speaking of playing stupid, got caught by the Hans Flat ranger bitches riding in the Canyonlands boundary with no plates on the dirt bikes. Playing stupid definitely worked some magic for us there.

Ich spreche nur bei der Polizei in Deutschland und so tun, ich glaube nicht, Englisch zu verstehen, nach einer Weile, sie nur mit den Schultern zucken und sagen, hat einen schönen Tag.

How do you wear earth colored clothes and dress like a tourist? And how am I to do a canyon in socks and sandals? This seems hard..... Do they have earth colored plaid? I can see I am in trouble if I ever tried something. All I have is "official" canyoneering stuff. Dang, I fit the profile of a canyoneer. I can, however, act stupid. I just "project" into one of my boneheaded client demeanors (most of my clients I like and they aren't boneheaded but a few.....yikes.) Another inconsistent poaching technique you suggest is "quick" and "tourist." I have yet to find a quick, quiet, earth-toned tourist. I think the next time I have an encounter I will just go with Portuguese. :haha:

I'm not saying I have or haven't...but It's easier than you would think in Zion. Even the real popular ones. The trick is to avoid the usual hours and know where the rangers typically hang out on the popular canyons. I've only seen rangers in canyon once in 9 years. I've been checked more times than i can count at TH and exits.

I have never seen a ranger or been checked. Other then when we tubed down the narrows. But she didn't even ask for our permit.

Mark

Any one up for poaching Oak Creek sometime. I can get the sneak route through the Girls Camp up there.

Josh and I poached the Subway last year. Our permit was for Das Boot only. Really? They actually think people will exit after Das Boot? Our plan was to play dumb and act like we thought the permit covered the whole trip. We didn't get caught. :five:

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Originally Posted by Don

Josh and I poached the Subway last year. Our permit was for Das Boot only. Really? They actually think people will exit after Das Boot? Our plan was to play dumb and act like we thought the permit covered the whole trip. We didn't get caught. :five:

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Might I suggest that you exercise your right to remain silent. Comments like that will get you on "the list" with the Mapleton gang. :haha:

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

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Originally Posted by Don

Josh and I poached the Subway last year. Our permit was for Das Boot only. Really? They actually think people will exit after Das Boot? Our plan was to play dumb and act like we thought the permit covered the whole trip. We didn't get caught. :five:

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Might I suggest that you exercise your right to remain silent. Comments like that will get you on "the list" with the Mapleton gang. :haha:

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I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. But I CAN recommend NOT Lying to the law enforcement officer - they take that very seriously.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

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Originally Posted by Don

Josh and I poached the Subway last year. Our permit was for Das Boot only. Really? They actually think people will exit after Das Boot? Our plan was to play dumb and act like we thought the permit covered the whole trip. We didn't get caught. :five:

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Might I suggest that you exercise your right to remain silent. Comments like that will get you on "the list" with the Mapleton gang. :haha:

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Wouldn't be the first time I've been on someone's list. Can't imagine it'll be the last either. :naughty:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

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Originally Posted by Don

Josh and I poached the Subway last year. Our permit was for Das Boot only. Really? They actually think people will exit after Das Boot? Our plan was to play dumb and act like we thought the permit covered the whole trip. We didn't get caught. :five:

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Might I suggest that you exercise your right to remain silent. Comments like that will get you on "the list" with the Mapleton gang. :haha:

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I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. But I CAN recommend NOT Lying to the law enforcement officer - they take that very seriously.

Tom

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I am one of "them" and I agree with Tom, you lie you get more charges. You shut up, and take your lumps if confronted. My comment was half serious and half an attempt at humor. The serious part was that it is Not a good idea to confess ones poaching on the internets of the world.

What is the penalty for doing a canyon without a permit? Or having to many on a permit? :ne_nau:

Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

What is the penalty for doing a canyon without a permit? Or having to many on a permit? :ne_nau:

Mark

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No penalty at all









































































for those who don't get caught... :mrgreen:

I agree with Tom. Issues of permits and poaching aside, if you're caught, you're caught. Lying is only going to make it worse. And I think they will look for other violations in addition to the lack of permit. One caveat: if you're going to poach, at least have your story straight if stopped and keep it simple, stupid. You're still caught, but at least your story will be consistent with others in your group.

Exiting the Subway on Saturday our group found a ranger in the parking lot questioning a man in a vehicle. He asked me if I was part of their group - it was hard to tell initially because our group had spread out along the climb up and I couldn't really see the dude in the truck, but I said no, I was with Bo Beck's group.

A second dude came out of the porta-potty carrying his TP and the Ranger kept him mid-lot away from the other vehicle. I could hear the questioning from the shade at the side of the lot.

"So, how long were you here?"

"Just long enough to use the toilet."

"You didn't walk the trail at all?"

"Nope."

"So, 10 minites? An hour?"

"Um, we walked out to the trail too..."

"Did you go down to the water?"

"Um...."

"Were you hiking along the river?"

"Uh, we went down the trail...."

"So, you hiked the trail?"

"Well, only to the observation point so we could look at the canyon..."

"If you only went down the trail a short distance, why are you so sweaty?"

(The guy looked like he had been through the wringer recently, like only the hike up the ridge could do, or a very difficult time in a 110 degree restroom...)

The guy was clearly busted. They had been farther upstream than the small trib that comes in on canyon right prior to the uphill trail.

From what I could see, I thought the Ranger did a very solid, professional questioning of the two. He was calm, asked very simple questions, restated what he heard, and watched the story fall apart in front of him. He followed the rabbit down the hole.

Again, issues with permits aside, if you're caught poaching (unplanned) lying isn't going to help your case. The ranger took their ID's, and I think they were cited. They weren't there when we brought the cars back from the upper lot.

I asked Bonnie the next day at the Keyhole check what the fine was for poaching. She gave me a 'why do you want to know look' and said it was $150. I'm guessing that's per individual?

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Originally Posted by Deeps

I agree with Tom. Issues of permits and poaching aside, if you're caught, you're caught. Lying is only going to make it worse. And I think they will look for other violations in addition to the lack of permit. One caveat: if you're going to poach, at least have your story straight if stopped and keep it simple, stupid. You're still caught, but at least your story will be consistent with others in your group.

...

The guy was clearly busted. They had been farther upstream than the small trib that comes in on canyon right prior to the uphill trail.

From what I could see, I thought the Ranger did a very solid, professional questioning of the two. He was calm, asked very simple questions, restated what he heard, and watched the story fall apart in front of him. He followed the rabbit down the hole.

Again, issues with permits aside, if you're caught poaching (unplanned) lying isn't going to help your case. The ranger took their ID's, and I think they were cited. They weren't there when we brought the cars back from the upper lot.

I asked Bonnie the next day at the Keyhole check what the fine was for poaching. She gave me a 'why do you want to know look' and said it was $150. I'm guessing that's per individual?

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The ranger issuing the ticket has wide discretion, up to $1000.00 and time in jail. If contested, the magistrate can go deeper.

Hiking from the Left Fork Trailhead past the rim requires a Subway permit. I'm not sure the signs do a good job of alerting people to this potential violation. I AM sure that spending effort on enforcing this rule is counterproductive to park goals.

A bureaucracy is where the rules and enforcement of the rules become more important than the goals. The goal is to prevent over-crowding to maintain a 'wilderness experience' for people who win the permit. These guys hiking a few minutes down the trail probably did not effect anyone's wilderness experience....

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

These guys hiking a few minutes down the trail probably did not effect anyone's wilderness experience....

Tom :moses:

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I saw these guys in the canyon. Their two different story's crumbled infront of the ranger. They poached it.

But yes I see your point Tom. :cool2:

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Originally Posted by Deeps

I agree with Tom. Issues of permits and poaching aside, if you're caught, you're caught. Lying is only going to make it worse. And I think they will look for other violations in addition to the lack of permit. One caveat: if you're going to poach, at least have your story straight if stopped and keep it simple, stupid. You're still caught, but at least your story will be consistent with others in your group.

Exiting the Subway on Saturday our group found a ranger in the parking lot questioning a man in a vehicle. He asked me if I was part of their group - it was hard to tell initially because our group had spread out along the climb up and I couldn't really see the dude in the truck, but I said no, I was with Bo Beck's group.

A second dude came out of the porta-potty carrying his TP and the Ranger kept him mid-lot away from the other vehicle. I could hear the questioning from the shade at the side of the lot.

"So, how long were you here?"

"Just long enough to use the toilet."

"You didn't walk the trail at all?"

"Nope."

"So, 10 minites? An hour?"

"Um, we walked out to the trail too..."

"Did you go down to the water?"

"Um...."

"Were you hiking along the river?"

"Uh, we went down the trail...."

"So, you hiked the trail?"

"Well, only to the observation point so we could look at the canyon..."

"If you only went down the trail a short distance, why are you so sweaty?"

(The guy looked like he had been through the wringer recently, like only the hike up the ridge could do, or a very difficult time in a 110 degree restroom...)

The guy was clearly busted. They had been farther upstream than the small trib that comes in on canyon right prior to the uphill trail.

From what I could see, I thought the Ranger did a very solid, professional questioning of the two. He was calm, asked very simple questions, restated what he heard, and watched the story fall apart in front of him. He followed the rabbit down the hole.

Again, issues with permits aside, if you're caught poaching (unplanned) lying isn't going to help your case. The ranger took their ID's, and I think they were cited. They weren't there when we brought the cars back from the upper lot.

I asked Bonnie the next day at the Keyhole check what the fine was for poaching. She gave me a 'why do you want to know look' and said it was $150. I'm guessing that's per individual?

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Why the interrogation? What was the reasonable suspision if he had be in the toilet? Why the contact in the first place. :frustrated:

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Why the interrogation? What was the reasonable suspision if he had be in the toilet? Why the contact in the first place. :frustrated:

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I don't know. I walked onto the scene already in motion.

But, based on having seen them in the watercourse it's fair to say their truck was parked at the lower lot for a period longer than a potty break. That was the line of questioning the ranger was following. 'How long have you been here? 10 minutes? An hour?' and so on.

The guy had no story, and spun himself up by not having simple, solid data for answers. If you're questioned by any law enforcement (especially border patrol) answer the question as simply and directly as possible. Don't give superfluous details. Extra details don't back you up, they give the line of questioning a new direction to follow and more elements to contradict your story.

My guess would be that the ranger had noted their vehicle without the permit info in the windshield. Stories of jumping out of bushes are one thing, but in this case I think the ranger was within reason to question the two.

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Why the interrogation? What was the reasonable suspision if he had be in the toilet? Why the contact in the first place. :frustrated:

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they had the only vehichle without a permit number sticky note on the dashboard. personally I would have asked why a permit was needed to be in the parking lot.

either way their lies increminated them and eventually the fessed up to poaching.

rangers can be "very very sneaky"

Folk could and should be more particular (careful) when entering zones where rangers are on drive by/or parked routes. Classic spots are top and bottom of Left Fork/Subway; Keyhole, Pine Creek and Spry. Particular challenge at Spry if a vehicle is left at the start and one has to shuttle back up. Myself/others in my group have never been tagged with a citation, but I've seen it happen a number of times in all of these areas and I've seen a range of courteous to rude when the rangers chat with and then interrogate canyoneers. Most/many rangers are respectful and professional; some are less than that (at times); sometimes "rangering" is boring and so when a citizen pops out of corner with a helmet on, a rope connected to a large pack or folk looking wet and worn (not the narrows) rangers come to attention and respond, and some ramp up.

BUMP....

With the current Zion permit talk I thought it would be a good time to bump this thread... that and it's also...

Throwback Thrusday!

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Originally Posted by Don

Our permit was for Das Boot only. Really? They actually think people will exit after Das Boot?

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We only got the permit for Das boot and exited like we were supposed to...we vowed to never let that happen again.

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Originally Posted by Cr8on

We only got the permit for Das boot and exited like we were supposed to...we vowed to never let that happen again.

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That's called "Das Hike" :lol8:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

A bureaucracy is where the rules and enforcement of the rules become more important than the goals.

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Thank you for that excellent quote.

Good bump.

The good news is that most canyoneers are probably not going to be too troubled by a little water boarding. The electrified wet steel wool sponges might be a different story.:nod:

I can't recall, is one given a numbered sticky to put into the window for the left fork parking lot? The lot itself is not so big so it is probably not so hard for the Rangers to swing by at one point and return later in the day and determine which cars are still there. Just saying. One needs to be aware that the Subway is very high profile for the Park Service.

BUMP - In honer of the recent Eye of the Needle thread.

And poaching Eye of the Needle when the Girl's Camp is being used is a very bad idea... not so hard when no one is there as you just have to avoid the caretaker.

[emoji14]opcorn:

When does the girls camp start and end?

From what I can tell the camp is occupied on and off throughout the summer as different wards and stakes use the camp. My best guess is Sunday the camp would be empty as most LDS camps pack up and go home Saturday so they can make Sunday services. Also late fall after school has started would be my target date, October with the leaves changing and few people around would probably be ideal.

While canyoneers never had official permission to access through the camp it was canyoneers being asshats that got the access closed. If I remember correctly the slot is actually on the edge of another landowners property, but he never knew we were descending the slot as we were out of his sight and causing him no issues at the time.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

From what I can tell the camp is occupied on and off throughout the summer as different wards and stakes use the camp. My best guess is Sunday the camp would be empty as most LDS camps pack up and go home Saturday so they can make Sunday services. Also late fall after school has started would be my target date, October with the leaves changing and few people around would probably be ideal.

While canyoneers never had official permission to access through the camp it was canyoneers being asshats that got the access closed. If I remember correctly the slot is actually on the edge of another landowners property, but he never knew we were descending the slot as we were out of his sight and causing him no issues at the time.

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I disagree. My understanding is that they DO Sunday services at the camp. If you are going to poach, don't go through the camp. You can drop into the streambed near the second gate and follow that to the first drop.

Tom (or some random person posting as Tom)

Tom, since you are a local, just get baptized and then become a youth volunteer. You could then enter the camp and say that you are patrolling the canyon just to make sure no youth happened to go in there and get lost and to make sure they didn't leave any trash behind in the camp that happened to make it into the drainage. Occasionally, you could recruit some friends to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Scott P

Tom, since you are a local, just get baptized and then become a youth volunteer. You could then enter the camp and say that you are patrolling the canyon just to make sure no youth happened to go in there and get lost and to make sure they didn't leave any trash behind in the camp that happened to make it into the drainage. Occasionally, you could recruit some friends to do the same.

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Ha! That could be his calling!

Get that lost sheep back into the flock!