Question: How to pass a knot when belaying from the top??

As some of you know I'm new to canyoneering, and in my constant attempts to lean all I can I have run into a question. It may be a dumb one but bare with me..

Situation:
I have a buddy rapping down a 200 footer when something gets stuck and he is unable to lock off and fix the problem. Now its my job to lower him from the top. We have anchored the rappel with a munter hitch and mule knot to secure it. We have two 200 ft ropes, my stranded buddy is hanging from one and we are using the other as a pull chord to retrieve the rope once we are all on the ground. But now that I have to belay him from above I have to pass the knot tieing the two ropes together through the munter hitch.

My question:

How would you succesfully pass this knot?

and

Is it jus stupid to rap single strand without a long enough rope to lower your buddy with the same rope (no knot passing)?

:ne_nau:

I have learned alot from this site and appreciate all the knowledgeable help!

Jaden

i'm also new to this and i've thought about the same thing... if i'm the one on the rope and I come to a knot. would it be smart to rig up a munter hitch on another carabiner and then detach the ATC and finish the rap with the munter hitch? probably not smart... could be risky i guess.

I'm still trying to figure out why you would need to pass a knot in this situation? :ne_nau:

Why not just raise the pull chord, tie a biner to it, lower it for your buddy, have him clip in, and than you can lower him....

Or am I not understanding the problem.....

:popcorn:

Thats a good idea, I'll definitely remember that for a conscious rapper.

But lets say my buddy has been knocked unconscious and is unable to clip in to a lowered biner. In Behunin we had a man on rope when rocks broke free up high, just brushed off his arm cutting him and barely missing his head. He was wearing a helmet but a large enough rock could have rendered him useless in helping himself.

In an unconscious situation I still see the need to pass a knot, which still leaves the standing question

I have thought of rigging a munter Behind the knot to another biner then being a burly man and somehow releasing pressure from the munter being used long enough to detach it, then you would continue lowering him from your new set up, having the knot in front of the munter and not having to pass it. This solution still leaves the problem of having to release pressure..

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I'm still trying to figure out why you would need to pass a knot in this situation? :ne_nau:

Why not just raise the pull chord, tie a biner to it, lower it for your buddy, have him clip in, and than you can lower him....

Or am I not understanding the problem.....

:popcorn:

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If I am following the question. His buddy rappelled down. He gets stuck, they had him on a munter. They do not have enough slack to lower him all the way to the ground. How do they now tie on their extra rope and get the knot thru the munter?

Cookie Cutter there is several ways to do this. I would recommend you buy a book called Self Rescue by David Fasulo. It is for climbing but goes over your question and a million others. Best read you will buy for this sport.
Look into Mariner Hitches or rigging an additional munter hitch with your extra rope. Get the book.

Shane's idea is the easiest if you still have slack on your original rope, and your buddy is able to clip himself to the new rope.

Cookie Cutter I just went back and read your question again. Yes if you can have enough rope at the top to be able to lower that is the best. Sometimes that is not possible. You can tie your two ropes together before you start the rappel with your knot being on the downside of your munter hitch. This would allow you to lower and rappel 400'. Hope that made sense.


Mark

Cool. I've heard many a good thing about that book. I'll order a copy today

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

As some of you know I'm new to canyoneering, and in my constant attempts to lean all I can I have run into a question. It may be a dumb one but bare with me..

Situation:
I have a buddy rapping down a 200 footer when something gets stuck and he is unable to lock off and fix the problem. Now its my job to lower him from the top. We have anchored the rappel with a munter hitch and mule knot to secure it. We have two 200 ft ropes, my stranded buddy is hanging from one and we are using the other as a pull cord to retrieve the rope once we are all on the ground. But now that I have to belay him from above I have to pass the knot tieing the two ropes together through the munter hitch.

My question:
How would you succesfully pass this knot? and

Is it just stupid to rap single strand without a long enough rope to lower your buddy with the same rope (no knot passing)? :ne_nau:

I have learned a lot from this site and appreciate all the knowledgeable help!

Jaden

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Ah, but you set up a dynamic (or contingency) anchor, because you thought something might go wrong. So let's put it in so that it works well.

Here's a diagram of the set up:

(Anchor)
(Biner with Munter Mule)
(second rope (1 foot))
(Knot bending the two ropes together)
(first rope going down to your buddy).

In other words, you join your two ropes together, and the munter mule goes in just above the knot. Your bud raps below the knot. If you have to lower him, you have the full length of the second rope to work with.

Now, a pet peeve. PLEASE do not take spelling lessons from Shane. A "Chord" is a set of notes. A "Cord" is a small piece of rope, too thin and wimpy to provide life-support.

Tom :moses:

May I tweak your scenario a bit to make it more interesting?

Tom's explanation is perfect when your rope and the rappel are approximately the same. It would be silly to rig a releasable system on a 190 foot rappel with a 200 foot rope. You'd have to pray that any problems occur within 10 feet from the ground. When it's that close, do as Tom suggested; tie the ropes together and rig your releasable system ABOVE the knot (actually a bend).

But what if ... You are setting up a rope on a rappel that you believe is about 95 feet and believe it prudent to rig a releasable system. You feed out 95 feet of rope and rig your releasable system. You believe the 105 feet of rope in your rope bag is sufficient. But your depth perception failed you. The rappel is actually 160 feet. Your buddy gets in trouble just 20 feet below you, so you need to lower him 140 feet (let's assume you don't know how to rig a haul system).

You release your system and start lowering. 105 feet of rope passes through your hand. You're at the end of the rope and your buddy is still not all the way down to the ground. What do you do? For the sake of the scenario, you can assume you have a second rope.

If you have another crab, when you get to the knot, tie a second munter through a second crab on the other side of the knot and clip it to the anchor. You have to haul up enough rope to release the caribiner with the original munter. Then release the haul and transfer the unconscious guy onto the second biner/munter. Continue lowering.

Upon further thought, unless you start off right at the knot, a prussic could be tied between the anchor and the loaded rope before you reach the knot to prevent having to haul anything, as you continue to lower the prussic would move away from the anchor and then absorb the load when it reaches full extension.

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Originally Posted by nonot

Upon further thought, unless you start off right at the knot, a prussic could be tied between the anchor and the loaded rope before you reach the knot to prevent having to haul anything, as you continue to lower the prussic would move away from the anchor and then absorb the load when it reaches full extension.

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But you will need to shift the load to the second munter hitch, at some point. How you do that?

T

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Cookie Cutter there is several ways to do this. I would recommend you buy a book called Self Rescue by David Fasulo. It is for climbing but goes over your question and a million others. Best read you will buy for this sport.

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Thanks for the book recommend and helping me do my part keeping Amazon in business.

Quote:

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Here's a diagram of the set up:

(Anchor)
(Biner with Munter Mule)
(second rope (1 foot))
(Knot bending the two ropes together)
(first rope going down to your buddy).

In other words, you join your two ropes together, and the munter mule goes in just above the knot. Your bud raps below the knot. If you have to lower him, you have the full length of the second rope to work with.

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Avoid the whole knot passing to begin with, i like that! So all would rap down with this set up until the last person who would then undo this set up and rip a regular biner block with the knot connecting the two ropes on the right side of the block so as to allow it to be pulled from the bottom?

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Now, a pet peeve. PLEASE do not take spelling lessons from Shane. A "Chord" is a set of notes. A "Cord" is a small piece of rope, too thin and wimpy to provide life-support.

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I'll watch my typing, thanks for the advice. Those darn days at the piano still ride with me every now and then.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by nonot

Upon further thought, unless you start off right at the knot, a prussic could be tied between the anchor and the loaded rope before you reach the knot to prevent having to haul anything, as you continue to lower the prussic would move away from the anchor and then absorb the load when it reaches full extension.

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But you will need to shift the load to the second munter hitch, at some point. How you do that?

T

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Good point, I might have to break out an ascender, attach it to the load and my harness and lean backwards. Just enough to unload to prussic, would help if the second hitch is a bit snug and locked off .

I've seen people recommend the radium hitch, that would have been smarter if I rigged it that way initially but since I didn't I'm stuck with a little bit of grunt work?

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Originally Posted by rcwild

May I tweak your scenario a bit to make it more interesting?

Tom's explanation is perfect when your rope and the rappel are approximately the same. It would be silly to rig a releasable system on a 190 foot rappel with a 200 foot rope. You'd have to pray that any problems occur within 10 feet from the ground. When it's that close, do as Tom suggested; tie the ropes together and rig your releasable system ABOVE the knot (actually a bend).

But what if ... You believe the rappel is about 95 feet, so you feed out 95 feet of rope and rig your releasable system. You believe the 105 feet of rope in your rope bag is sufficient. But your depth perception failed you. The rappel is actually 130 feet. Your buddy gets in trouble just 20 feet below you, so you need to lower him 110 feet (let's assume you don't know how to rig a haul system). You only have 70 feet of rope left in your bag.

You release your system and start lowering. 70 feet or rope passes through your hand. You're at the end of the rope and your buddy is still not all the way down to the ground. What do you do? For the sake of the scenario, you can assume you have a second rope.

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I'll play, whip out your prussic, tibloc, ropeman, attach to your rappel rope. Take either acc. cord or end of your other rope and rig a mariner hitch or add another munter hitch to your rope attachment. For this example lets just use a mariner hitch. Now lower your original rope and load the mariner hitch. If you want to back all of this up tie a figure eight in your original rappel rope and clip it to the anchor. Once the mariner is loaded you can now tie your two rope ends together, now re rig with knot below munter. Release the mariner to load original rope and continue on.

If I followed the scenario right that is what I would do. Or as Shane said if your second rope is long enough you could just lower a carabiner down to him. Have him clip in rig on a munter and then lower him. Your going to have a mess when the other rope goes free but he would get down.



Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

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Originally Posted by rcwild

But what if ... You believe the rappel is about 95 feet, so you feed out 95 feet of rope and rig your releasable system. You believe the 105 feet of rope in your rope bag is sufficient. But your depth perception failed you. The rappel is actually 130 feet. Your buddy gets in trouble just 20 feet below you, so you need to lower him 110 feet (let's assume you don't know how to rig a haul system). You only have 70 feet of rope left in your bag.

You release your system and start lowering. 70 feet or rope passes through your hand. You're at the end of the rope and your buddy is still not all the way down to the ground. What do you do? For the sake of the scenario, you can assume you have a second rope.

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I'll play, whip out your prussic, tibloc, ropeman, attach to your rappel rope. Take either acc. cord or end of your other rope and rig a mariner hitch or add another munter hitch to your rope attachment. For this example lets just use a mariner hitch. Now lower your original rope and load the mariner hitch. If you want to back all of this up tie a figure eight in your original rappel rope and clip it to the anchor. Once the mariner is loaded you can now tie your two rope ends together, now re rig with knot below munter. Release the mariner to load original rope and continue on.

If I followed the scenario right that is what I would do. Or as Shane said if your second rope is long enough you could just lower a carabiner down to him. Have him clip in rig on a munter and then lower him. Your going to have a mess when the other rope goes free but he would get down.

Mark

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I'm in a hurry.

I lower until the knot is close to sticking. Oops, need more rope. Tie off Rope#1 with a mule at the munter hitch. Toss another sling around the tree with a ring and biner, up higher and tighter than the first anchor. Tie Rope #1 to Rope #2. Set up Rope #2 with a munter hitch for lowering, and pull it out snug. Whip out my handy universal-knot-untier and cut the sling on the lower anchor, continue the lower.

Tom

I bungled the math a bit in my scenario. Fixed it. But I think everyone understood the point of the exercise.

Any other solutions?

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Originally Posted by cilantro13

Thanks for the book recommend and helping me do my part keeping Amazon in business.

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cheaper at overstock
LINK

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by moab mark

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Originally Posted by rcwild

But what if ... You believe the rappel is about 95 feet, so you feed out 95 feet of rope and rig your releasable system. You believe the 105 feet of rope in your rope bag is sufficient. But your depth perception failed you. The rappel is actually 130 feet. Your buddy gets in trouble just 20 feet below you, so you need to lower him 110 feet (let's assume you don't know how to rig a haul system). You only have 70 feet of rope left in your bag.

You release your system and start lowering. 70 feet or rope passes through your hand. You're at the end of the rope and your buddy is still not all the way down to the ground. What do you do? For the sake of the scenario, you can assume you have a second rope.

---

I'll play, whip out your prussic, tibloc, ropeman, attach to your rappel rope. Take either acc. cord or end of your other rope and rig a mariner hitch or add another munter hitch to your rope attachment. For this example lets just use a mariner hitch. Now lower your original rope and load the mariner hitch. If you want to back all of this up tie a figure eight in your original rappel rope and clip it to the anchor. Once the mariner is loaded you can now tie your two rope ends together, now re rig with knot below munter. Release the mariner to load original rope and continue on.

If I followed the scenario right that is what I would do. Or as Shane said if your second rope is long enough you could just lower a carabiner down to him. Have him clip in rig on a munter and then lower him. Your going to have a mess when the other rope goes free but he would get down.

Mark

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I'm in a hurry.

I lower until the knot is close to sticking. Oops, need more rope. Tie off Rope#1 with a mule at the munter hitch. Toss another sling around the tree with a ring and biner, up higher and tighter than the first anchor. Tie Rope #1 to Rope #2. Set up Rope #2 with a munter hitch for lowering, and pull it out snug. Whip out my handy universal-knot-untier and cut the sling on the lower anchor, continue the lower.

Tom

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I like that idea thanks Tom. One question if you have a munter mule on the lower anchor when you cut the webbing do you just leave that munter mule? You can't remove it can you?

Mark

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

I have a buddy rapping down a 200 footer when something gets stuck and he is unable to lock off and fix the problem.

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One note about your original problem. You said your buddy was unable to lock off (for whatever reason). If he was unable to lock off I assume that means he has to still be conscious and holding the brake.

If your buddy is unconscious that means he is already locked off with some type of safety brake or he has pancake into the ground.... or so I assumed....

:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Now, a pet peeve. PLEASE do not take spelling lessons from Shane. A "Chord" is a set of notes. A "Cord" is a small piece of rope, too thin and wimpy to provide life-support.

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And for Tom.....

Crazed Institution - Jethro Tull

Just a little touch of make-up; just a little touch of bull;
just a little 3-chord trick embedded in your platform soul;
you can wear a gold Piaget on your Semaphore wrist;
you can dance the old adage with a dapper new twist.
And you can ring a crown of roses round your cranium,
live and die upon your cross of platinum.
Join the crazed institution of the stars.
Be the man that you think (know) you really are.

Crawl inside your major triad, curl up and laugh
as your agent scores another front page photograph.
Is it them or is it you throwing dice inside the loo
awaiting someone else to pull the chain.
Well grab the old bog-handle, hold your breath and light a candle.
Clear your throat and pray for rain to irrigate the corridors that echo in
your brain filled with empty nothingness, empty hunger pains.

And you can ring a crown of roses round your cranium,
live and die upon your cross of platinum.
Join the crazed institution of the stars.
Be the man that you think (know) you really are.

:rockon:

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One note about your original problem. You said your buddy was unable to lock off (for whatever reason). If he was unable to lock off I assume that means he has to still be conscious and holding the brake.

If your buddy is unconscious that means he is already locked off with some type of safety brake or he has pancake into the ground.... or so I assumed....

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Point taken. I should have written more clearly. But in writing it not so clearly I have achieved more than one solution. So thanks to everyone!

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I like that idea thanks Tom. One question if you have a munter mule on the lower anchor when you cut the webbing do you just leave that munter mule? You can't remove it can you?

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I was wondering the same thing

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

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I like that idea thanks Tom. One question if you have a munter mule on the lower anchor when you cut the webbing do you just leave that munter mule? You can't remove it can you?

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I was wondering the same thing

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You're doing a rescue - you're in a hurry. You leave it. It might bung the rope when it goes over the edge, but at least it is near the end. You remove the parts that come off easy, so that they don't fall down and hurt anyone, but otherwise, you just send it down.

Unless, it's going to get jammed in a crack or something, in which case, this quick and dirty method does not work. Gotta get the biner off, and even then, the knot might cause problems...

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

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Originally Posted by moab mark

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Originally Posted by rcwild

But what if ... You believe the rappel is about 95 feet, so you feed out 95 feet of rope and rig your releasable system. You believe the 105 feet of rope in your rope bag is sufficient. But your depth perception failed you. The rappel is actually 130 feet. Your buddy gets in trouble just 20 feet below you, so you need to lower him 110 feet (let's assume you don't know how to rig a haul system). You only have 70 feet of rope left in your bag.

You release your system and start lowering. 70 feet or rope passes through your hand. You're at the end of the rope and your buddy is still not all the way down to the ground. What do you do? For the sake of the scenario, you can assume you have a second rope.

---

I'll play, whip out your prussic, tibloc, ropeman, attach to your rappel rope. Take either acc. cord or end of your other rope and rig a mariner hitch or add another munter hitch to your rope attachment. For this example lets just use a mariner hitch. Now lower your original rope and load the mariner hitch. If you want to back all of this up tie a figure eight in your original rappel rope and clip it to the anchor. Once the mariner is loaded you can now tie your two rope ends together, now re rig with knot below munter. Release the mariner to load original rope and continue on.

If I followed the scenario right that is what I would do. Or as Shane said if your second rope is long enough you could just lower a carabiner down to him. Have him clip in rig on a munter and then lower him. Your going to have a mess when the other rope goes free but he would get down.

Mark

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I'm in a hurry.

I lower until the knot is close to sticking. Oops, need more rope. Tie off Rope#1 with a mule at the munter hitch. Toss another sling around the tree with a ring and biner, up higher and tighter than the first anchor. Tie Rope #1 to Rope #2. Set up Rope #2 with a munter hitch for lowering, and pull it out snug. Whip out my handy universal-knot-untier and cut the sling on the lower anchor, continue the lower.

Tom

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Actually, you may have noticed a problem here. As stated, the bottom biner will have a munter AND mule on it, then tensioned up to the knot then the second munter. My BAD!

So, WHEN you "pull it all snug", you will want to pull the mule on the bottom munter, then take the slack out onto the second munter. Then cut the sling and you will have the biner stuck on the rope, but only the biner. Pull the webbing off the biner, careful not to drop the ring.

Tom

With two guys on top you wouldn't even need a mule knot. When you get close have the extra guy hold the original munter. Tie the two ropes together. Set the knot right against new anchor-munter. Then let bottom one down till loads top one cut webbing continue.
Your ring or rapide would stay with the lower biner.

It's a slick concept Tom. You also never take a chance of having your rappeller hanging on a prussic-mariner etc.
Thanks.

Mark

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

You're doing a rescue - you're in a hurry. You leave it.

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When doing a rescue ... go slow to go fast. Slow and deliberate. Mistakes from rushing may cost more time in the long run.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

You're doing a rescue - you're in a hurry. You leave it.

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When doing a rescue ... go slow to go fast. Slow and deliberate. Mistakes from rushing may cost more time in the long run.

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we have the same quote for our BITD off road team.. slower is faster. the faster you go the better your chances are for breaking something.