Aluminum rap rings-Pointless?

I wasn't getting enough drama on the guided rap thread so I thought I could start a good argument on this thread. I don't think it will reach the "bolt wars" magnificence but its worth a try.

Why do people use aluminum rappel rings. I am fairly new at canyoneering so I claim ignorance on this. I have read that once you pull a rope on the aluminum rings you shouldn't use them anymore because of the wear on the ring making it weaker. To me it seems like the person putting on the ring is not being considerate toward the canyoneers to follow because they will either have to cut the webbing and make a whole new setup, or add a quicklink and leave a bigger "mess".

Am I the only one who thinks this? Is there a good reason for the aluminum rappel ring other than the small amount of weight you save by carrying them instead of quick links.

They are lighter, and I would guess that is the main reason some people use them. Some of them are hollow and wear down when you pull the rope making them lose strength, over time the hollow middle becomes exposed and then they really start to lose strength. Omega Pacific however makes solid aluminum rap rings, much stronger and won't wear down to a hollow middle. Some hate them, others like them. I have some of the omega pacifics and regular steel quick links. I wouldn't ever use the hollow rings. A lot of people use different gear depending on the canyon they are doing. Replacing webbing and rap rings in Pine Creek? 1 inch webbing with beefy quicklinks. Doing an unbetad new canyon you don't plan on giving out beta for anytime soon? Good to save weight where you can, use smaller webbing and lighter rap rings. Others will chime in with more "expert" opinions than mine.

Eric.

I didn't realize some were solid. I guess an add on question would be what point to not trust a rap ring. When the hollow middle shows?

I think Shaggy just about summed the differences between the hollow vs. Omega Pacific forged rings, with one exception. Being aluminum, they will not rust like the hardware store rapides, so they would certainly be more appropriate for wet canyons. But they will wear just like your aluminum descenders when the rope is pulled - with the Utah sandstone being more abrasive than our granite. Just ask my Pirana.

http://www.wildernessexchangeunlimit...ring_large.jpg
Forged aluminum rap ring for bail-outs and rap stations. Anodized gray for minimal visual impact. Solid construction (not hollow) for 20kN minimum breaking strength (over 4400lbs)! Not intended for repeated lowering.

This device is NOT designed to be used as a rappel or belay device (e.g. ATC, SBGII, Figure-8 or any other friction device). It is intended solely as a hardware alternative to bail-out slings, webbing and cord.

Weight: 34 grams

Did you notice all the rap rings in the photos in the Maidenwater thread? A lot still out there. I look at the wear and tear. If they are about a third worn through or if they are hollow, I replace. I don't know if that is good bad or otherwise. Calling the engineers... but that is my rule of thumb. I don't care for the hollow ones.

Since I've never come across one that has worn through, this is Tom's advice from his website, http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/slings.php. He probably wrote it before Omega pacific released their forged ones.

How about those aluminium rappel rings climbers use?
They suck. Okay, they are nice and light, and in low usage, dry canyons, they CAN work okay. But they start out pretty weak, and cut easily when wet, sandy ropes are pulled across them. When you find them in canyons, look them over carefully. Aluminum rappel rings are hollow, and if the groove cuts through to the hollow, remove it and replace with a "real" rapide.

And by the way Jaxx, thanks for asking questions. I am no expert but I like to hear the responses to your questions. I have learned some new stuff recently, and perhaps more importantly, the stuff stays fresh in my mind as I sit here and try to solve client's problems, far away from the canyons.

Thanks for the quick responses.

Scott-I have alot more where that came from! :haha: I know what you mean though about the keeping it fresh in your mind. I was trying to tie a simple knot the other day and I just couldn't remember how. Luckily my brain fart dissipated and I tied it.

Honestly I have not bought any gear other then ropes and backpacks for the past 5 or 6 years..... In regards to rap rings, rapids and webbing I collect it faster then I can use it.... I'm always cleaning up a rats nest created by others, this usually means about 20' or 30' of webbing per canyon and two or three rap rings or rapids of various types.....

When I come to the next rappel anchor I have to fix I usually use what's hanging on my harness or what is already there. If it's a popular route or one I plan to beta I give some thought to rigging it for those who will follow.... but I've also never considered it my duty to rig a bomber anchor for the next two hundred canyoneers.... people need to be responsible for themselves.... and I have been known to rappel off little more then trash.... not saying that's for everyone, but I've never had an anchor fail.

This thread should now also allow us to argue over using used gear, rappeling off trash and if you are responsible for those who follow.... :haha:

:rockon:

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Is there a good reason for the aluminum rappel ring other than the small amount of weight you save by carrying them instead of quick links.

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In my opinion the key words in using the aluminum rap rings is "low use". Fairly recently I did a canyon where I placed some rings four years eariler. They were still in good condition and it appeared that no one or very few people had used them since then so they were in good condition.

Anyway, going back to the "good reason" question, I know some hate them, but I sometimes like them for the weight difference and because ropes are easy to pull. I also like the solid rap rings too.

As far as "small amount of weight you save", that's true with one or two, but when doing a beta-less canyon we've often taken 20 or more rings. That's a huge difference in weight.

I also find the ropes easier to pull from the rings vs. similar sized rapid links.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott P

In my opinion the key words in using the aluminum rap rings is "low use". Fairly recently I did a canyon where I placed some rings four years eariler. They were still in good condition and it appeared that no one or very few people had used them since then so they were in good condition.

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If the rope is dry and clean, it will not cut the ring when you pull it. So standard SMC rappel rings work fine in many places. Just not in Pine Creek (for instance).

The OP ones are a big step up, but they ARE aluminum and if the rope is wet and sandy, they will cut pretty fast. Viva Steel!

Welded round steel rings are fine. In Utah, I think the air is dry enough that (except in the dankest of places) regular steel does not rust appreciably.

Tom

Quote:

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If the rope is dry and clean, it will not cut the ring when you pull it. So standard SMC rappel rings work fine in many places. Just not in Pine Creek (for instance).

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The canyon I speak of was the Middle Fork of Little Gem in the Swell:

http://www.summitpost.org/canyon/152...ddle-fork.html

It's usually a pretty dry canyon and since it sees very little use, the rings do seem to work fine in there. I definately agree that they wouldn't be good for something like Pine Creek.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Welded round steel rings are fine. In Utah, I think the air is dry enough that (except in the dankest of places) regular steel does not rust appreciably.

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Both the Fixe and Faders stainless rings are available locally. Both bomber, and, they don't rust. I buy them by the bucket load. Leave them more than any other anchor, fo' sho'. They also don't seem to groove out near as fast as a rapide. And, very easy rope pull, but, still small enough that they block a rope knot (or biner) in a large diameter rope (ala 8.9mm dynamic climbing rope).

In a high traffic canyon, its nice to consider other folks. For exploration, a pile of those SMC rap rings weigh so much less than a single 3/8" rapide that it makes sense to carry them for some remote stuff, where weight is a concern and the probability of a ton of rapples is high.

I'm not as big a fan of the O-P aluminum fat rap rings. Still aluminum, and, will wear faster than the steel counterparts, with very little weight savings.

-Brian in SLC

OK,
I am a rock and ice climber just getting back into climbing having been retired since the 90's. My question is this - concerning rap rings.

Back in to 80's & 90's - we were taught to skip using rap rings all together - as these were potential 'weak links' in the rap system, and simply rig a rap thru 2 new 1" tubular slings of our own. The theory was, webbing was cheaper than rap rings, 2 slings were redundant, easily replaced with new ones by parties that followed with slings of their own, and that rap rings were not to be trusted when used with 2 slings being - "Why create TWO 'links' in the rap 'chain' (rig) versus only ONE - and that was of just using webbing itself?

In other words - 2 lings + 2 rap rigs = 4 pcs of gear, and that 2 slings themselves = 2 pcs of gear left behind - less costly and 2 LESS potential areas of failure.

Thoughts?

I don't know that I'd want to use or trust using anyone else's rap rings that I found even if I put 2 of them on 2 brand new web slings of my own.

?????

Quote:

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Back in to 80's & 90's - we were taught to skip using rap rings all
together

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Who was it that taught this? (Just curious, not arguing). Every video, book, etc. I have from that time period (anywhere from Steve Allen's books to Turville's instructional canyoneering video) says to use them.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...th-old-anchors

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott P

Who was it that taught this? (Just curious, not arguing). Every video, book, etc. I have from that time period (anywhere from Steve Allen's books to Turville's instructional canyoneering video) says to use them.

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Freedom of the Hills.

One reason i consider the "committee book" suspect on all issues.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Freedom of the Hills.

One reason i consider the "committee book" suspect on all issues.

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From the 8th edition, page 192: " Rappel Rings. To eliminate the risk of damage from friction both when setting the rappel and when retrieving the rope, attach the rope to the anchor sling(s) with a rappel ring."

Attachment 53315

Just for fun, from the 1960 first edition of Mountaineering the Freedom of the Hills:

Page 173, "To faclitate pulling down the rope it is advisable to thread the slings through a descending ring, through which the rappel rope is in turn threaded, gaining a much smoother running surface."

As well, page 174/175, with regard to stuck ropes, "Proper care in placement of slings and descending rings can reduce the frequency of such problems."

Pull cord, ala 1960!

Attachment 53318

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

From the 8th edition, page 192: " Rappel Rings. To eliminate the risk of damage from friction both when setting the rappel and when retrieving the rope, attach the rope to the anchor sling(s) with a rappel ring."

Attachment 53315

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How's your page 194 look? My 7th has the same diagram 192; but on 194 they show the rope set up no ring. :facepalm1: They are inconsistent, and say crazy things. "Don't trust welded rings" - you know, like those 10,000 lb fixe steel rappel rings - very dangerous!!!

Tom

Same as you've posted. I don't have the 7th, but, looking at the 6th edition, the figure tossing the rope off doesn't show the anchor. In the 8th, figure 11-9, the figure is tossing off the rope, and, the anchor is present, which is an equilized cord-a-lette to a single, yeah, single, rapide.

They mention using a rap ring in several places. On p192 they do mention, "Older, welded rappel rings shold not be trusted." Must be a reference to some, uhh, older welded rappel rings apparently. These new stainless ones I wouldn't worry about.

Here's our boy Edward gettin' 'er done ala the 1872 first American edition of Scrambles...:

Attachment 53320

Ghosting, ultralight, Whymper ahead of his time back in the day. Close up with detail:

Attachment 53321

Ever see that lead rope they used on the FA of the Matterhorn? Scary skinny cord...can't be 7mm, maybe 6mm. In Zermatt at the museum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

OK,
I am a rock and ice climber just getting back into climbing having been retired since the 90's. My question is this - concerning rap rings.

Back in to 80's & 90's - we were taught to skip using rap rings all together - as these were potential 'weak links' in the rap system, and simply rig a rap thru 2 new 1" tubular slings of our own. The theory was, webbing was cheaper than rap rings, 2 slings were redundant, easily replaced with new ones by parties that followed with slings of their own, and that rap rings were not to be trusted when used with 2 slings being - "Why create TWO 'links' in the rap 'chain' (rig) versus only ONE - and that was of just using webbing itself?

In other words - 2 slings + 2 rap rigs = 4 pcs of gear, and that 2 slings themselves = 2 pcs of gear left behind - less costly and 2 LESS potential areas of failure.

Thoughts?

I don't know that I'd want to use or trust using anyone else's rap rings that I found even if I put 2 of them on 2 brand new web slings of my own.

?????

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Welcome to the Bog, Scoobie.

You bring up some interesting issues, and there are probably differences between climbers in different areas of the country, and with canyoneers, and different groups of canyoneers. Let me state what *I* think is the generally-known standard for canyoneers, then Brian will disagree, DeathCricket will give the Libertarian point of view, etc... the normal flow of opinion for Bogley...

Canyoneering:

1. Rap Rings are very important and should be used on almost every rappel.
A. If you don't use a rappel ring, the friction will be higher, and the rap will be very hard to pull.
B. If you don't use a rappel ring, when you pull the rope through the sling it will burn the sling, damage the sling. The next group will do the same, etc. until the sling fails on some unfortunate fool. (In theory, each party should replace the webbing - in practice this rarely happens.) By not using rings, you create a booby-trap for the next booby that comes along.
C. For exceptionally short raps, they are perhaps not used.

2. Rap Rings: there are several choices of rings made for climbing/canyoneering. Steel tends to work better in canyoneering, as wet, sandy ropes cut through aluminum rings fairly quickly.
A. Rapid Links (Rapides, Quick Links, R/QL) are generally preferred, in 6mm, 7mm or 8mm size. Some people (like me) insist on using the Maillon Rapide brand, while many are OK with the non-branded "Home Depot" type links, especially if using sizes larger than 1/4" (6mm). 6mm rapides are suspect by some people.
B. In trade route canyons, it is probably better to use larger links, say 7mm or 8mm (5/16"), as they are often done by climbers with beat 11mm ropes that might hang up in a 6mm rapide. They will also need replacement due to wear less often.
C. Aluminum rings sure are lighter, but get cut up quickly. When the rappels are dry and the rope expected to be dry they are acceptable and work just fine. Watch out for wear on the SMC hollow/rolled rappel rings. The new Omega ones are a lot better, but still aluminum.
D. On BIG rappels, you might tend toward using bigger rapides as they will have less friction.

3. Slings on anchors: Generally 1" Tubular is the standard, though 11/16" supertape is also acceptable. Please use "natural" colors, black, grey - neutral. The Grand Canyon requires Black.
A. really should be thoroughly inspected along their full length before use. If you don't like them, please REMOVE them, and place a new one.
B. if you come upon an anchor sling with no ring, inspect carefully for a burn mark at the low point. you may want to replace this sling out of hand.

While excess complexity in anchor setups should be avoided, adding reliable pieces that belong there in an anchor system is generally a good idea. Adding a reliable ring is such an item.

From a philosophical point of view, I believe in understanding the physics/mechanics of the system, rather than following a set of rules from an "expert". You know, like the list above... :facepalm1:

Generally on a 2-bolt anchor, or any other anchor for that matter, in a canyoneering context, you would find 1 piece of webbing and 1 ring, likely a steel rapid link.

Generally, in a canyoneering context, except for 2-bolt anchors you will find ONE anchor that may vary from truck to rather dubious. Philosophically, time spent building a second (backup) anchor point would be better spent making the primary anchor more solid.

Rings and webbing have no hidden secrets. You can know everything you need to know about them by inspection. Thus, found objects - webbing, rings, carabiners - are good to use if you inspect them and determine they are good to go. However, along this same theme, do NOT use found objects that you do not recognize. People leave behind all sorts of crazy things out there in canyons, including: welded steel rings made for handbags or horse halters; polypropylene webbing cut off a life-jacket; water ski rope; etc.

Along the same lines, putting two pieces of webbing around a tree does not make it safer as an anchor. If you cannot make a safe anchor using one sling, then adding another unsafe sling won't improve the safety. :facepalm1:

Oh, and canyoneers wear helmets, except DeathCricket who apparently has nothing to live for. :crazy: :crazycobasa:

Tom :moses:

Truckstop!

Attachment 53322

Thanks all for the great info and shared pages from various books, etc. And thanks Ratagonia for your info and input as well.

The instructor that taught us climbing back in the 80's 'theory' was - "Every time you rap off a route you need to rig 2 brand new slings of your own and replace what was left there by others. It's OK to say 'Use 1 of their slings as a backup IF totally necessary and you only have 1 new sling of your own to use - but better to 'cut off' all old slings left prior to you that may have been burned or suffered weathering from the elements, UV degradation, etc. and replace with new ones. Each party is responsible to replace old slings with their OWN new one(s) - and that "Adding a rap ring adds an unnecessary potential weak link into the system and isn't needed at all. Makes more sense to have 2 brand new slings around a stout anchor, etc - and have ONE rap ring thru both slings that might fail."

Now - I remember this as being 'gospel' back then, taking notes and such as we were taught along the way." Naturally - it IS possible that I/we MISUNDERSTOOD his instruction - but honestly - as I truly recall - this was 1 thing that always stuck out in my head for whatever reason - I don't think I/we misunderstood what he was saying.

However, was you and others - and even Mountaineering: Freedom Of The Hills states - it would be pretty foolish - at least to ME - to simply use 2 brand new slings every time someone raps off a route - KNOWING that once the rap is done and you pull your rope THRU them - that both are gonna get seriously burned from the friction of-such, and having to be replaced every time someone wants to rap the route.

As shown in this pic - this IS what WE were taught!

You make an interesting point concerning the purchase of rapid links from places such as Lowe's or Home Depot, etc.

Is there a site may I ask where you have all found to be a good source to purchased Rapide Links?

Thanks for the info again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

Thanks all for the great info and shared pages from various books, etc. And thanks Ratagonia for your info and input as well.

The instructor that taught us climbing back in the 80's 'theory' was - "Every time you rap off a route you need to rig 2 brand new slings of your own and replace what was left there by others. It's OK to say 'Use 1 of their slings as a backup IF totally necessary and you only have 1 new sling of your own to use - but better to 'cut off' all old slings left prior to you that may have been burned or suffered weathering from the elements, UV degradation, etc. and replace with new ones. Each party is responsible to replace old slings with their OWN new one(s) - and that "Adding a rap ring adds an unnecessary potential weak link into the system and isn't needed at all. Makes more sense to have 2 brand new slings around a stout anchor, etc - and have ONE rap ring thru both slings that might fail."

Now - I remember this as being 'gospel' back then, taking notes and such as we were taught along the way." Naturally - it IS possible that I/we MISUNDERSTOOD his instruction - but honestly - as I truly recall - this was 1 thing that always stuck out in my head for whatever reason - I don't think I/we misunderstood what he was saying.

However, was you and others - and even Mountaineering: Freedom Of The Hills states - it would be pretty foolish - at least to ME - to simply use 2 brand new slings every time someone raps off a route - KNOWING that once the rap is done and you pull your rope THRU them - that both are gonna get seriously burned from the friction of-such, and having to be replaced every time someone wants to rap the route.

As shown in this pic - this IS what WE were taught!

You make an interesting point concerning the purchase of rapid links from places such as Lowe's or Home Depot, etc.

Is there a site may I ask where you have all found to be a good source to purchased Rapide Links?

Thanks for the info again!

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I started climbing in 1974, Scoobie, so I think we are rooted in the same era. It has always been one of my pet peeves that climbers get taught a bunch of whacko things (like this) and then they become rules.

Anyway, yes, I have rapid links in stock, 6mm, 7mm and 8mm.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=252

Tom :moses:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1330394354

Rapide bought from dollar shop for a dollar. Made in China. Cut with a pair of bolt cutters completely through. 9mm rope. Pulled through at around 4X body weight.

YMMV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1330394354

Rapide bought from dollar shop for a dollar. Made in China. Cut with a pair of bolt cutters completely through. 9mm rope. Pulled through at around 4X body weight.

YMMV.

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I'm unclear on what conclusion you draw from this, Brian. Shouldn't cut through your rapid links? Rappel softly after cutting through your rapid links?

Perhaps you could mention what SIZE China link that is - seems relevant. :cool2:

:moses:

What I did was try to simulate the worst condition you'd hopefully never see on a rapide. If the rapide was cut through right where the rope (or carabiner, or ring) sat, then, my thinking was that was the worst condition.

So, we yanked on a bunch of these. A few numbers.

9.1mm diameter intact (not cut through) failed at that neck down region by the threads at 7442lbf.
8mm at 7061.7lbf.
7mm at 6754.4lbf.
6mm tested with a 9mm rope: body failure at 5908lbf.

Note that the above "snapped" and that peak load was recorded. They didn't unwind, per se, so, I think if you were rappelling from them, they'd have still worked for, I dunno, certainly body weight.

Then took the same product, all from the dollar shop, all cost a buck, and, using bolt cutters, cut them in the worst place I could think of, right at the point where a biner or rope would sit if loaded on a rappel.

9.1mm with a 10mm pin: pin pulled through at 1205lbf.
9.1mm with a 9mm rope: rope pulled through at 740.2lbf.
8mm with a 10mm pin: pin pulled through at 743.7lbf.
7mm with a 10mm pin: pin pulled through at 544.3lbf.
7mm above, round two for fun: pin pulled through cut at 88.5lbf.

I guess my point in all this, is, rapides are made out of steel. If you don't see a gross defect, they oughta at least hold body weight.

Again, for a well travelled anchor, and, fixed anchors that are left for much use, season after season, sure, buy the good stuff. I place a gob of anchors every year (last weekend in fact) and I use all stainless rapides and rings. I double up when using chain and rapides from sources not as vetted as Peugot (etc). But, like in the photo above, if its Fixe/Raumer or any other standard climbing hardware sold for such, I'll go with those single ring (but to two bolt anchor) rigs. Compact, vertical (which I much prefer) and plenty darn strong.

Certainly, buy the good stuff. YMMV.

This was found recently in a so-cal canyon. I'm guessing the last person to rappel bent this SMC hollow/rolled aluminum ring
Attachment 53437

Two big guys on a simul rappel?

Those SMC rings are unusually strong for how thin and light they are...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1330394354

Rapide bought from dollar shop for a dollar. Made in China. Cut with a pair of bolt cutters completely through. 9mm rope. Pulled through at around 4X body weight.

YMMV.

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You could conclude that Rapid Links from this batch, from this factory are "X" strong.

Good luck getting Rapid links from the same factory again.

Yes, Steel is a forgiving medium.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

You could conclude that Rapid Links from this batch, from this factory are "X" strong.

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I might draw a few more conclusions from my testing...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Good luck getting Rapid links from the same factory again. Steel is a forgiving medium.

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I bought 100 of them...so...luck not really involved. They've mostly been consumed with various projects hither and yon. But, I have quite a pile of them left. Only place I seem to use them, unfortunately, is City/Castle up in Idaho where they are more concerned on size rather than material (ie, plated 3/8" over 5/16" stainless). Everywhere else I place an anchor I use stainless rapides (in combo with a ring, never alone).

What's interesting, is, if you plot the diameter of the rapide with the test results...fairly linear.

The hollow aluminum SMC rings were designed for "adventure climbing", where the route up and the route back down are uncertain before starting out. They are a super-lightweight solution to reduce friction on questionable pulls. They were not designed to be used more than once.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

I started climbing in 1974, Scoobie, so I think we are rooted in the same era. It has always been one of my pet peeves that climbers get taught a bunch of whacko things (like this) and then they become rules.

Anyway, yes, I have rapid links in stock, 6mm, 7mm and 8mm.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=252

Tom :moses:

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Thanks Tom,
Just for 'shits and giggles' - I contacted my old instructor via Face Book. (What a great thing Face Book is, eh? lol.) I asked him his thought on this subject now. His reply was "Given that it's hard to recall last week, I do not know what I told you
back in 88. And, like you, I continually question and adjust my methods any
time I get some new perspective or wisdom. Rapping is the norm now; years ago we always sought a walk off. So fixed anchors are everywhere. Redundancy remains important, but admittedly there are lots of single ring anchors. The new beefy types are more reassuring than the light aluminum ones. But you are right: pulling on nylon just burns it. So, regardless of what I was spinning years ago, I endorse metal rings as a safe standard."

So it seems as you all have stated here - that at least in the climbing sector - rap rings are being used and accepted as the norm, especially the new single steel versions being sold such as: http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3657274

Now - I am curious why a Rapide might be a 'preferred' alternative to a actual rap ring as the url above shows from say - Omega?

????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

Now - I am curious why a Rapide might be a 'preferred' alternative to a actual rap ring as the url above shows from say - Omega?

????

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Cost

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

...

So it seems as you all have stated here - that at least in the climbing sector - rap rings are being used and accepted as the norm, especially the new single steel versions being sold such as: http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3657274

Now - I am curious why a Rapide might be a 'preferred' alternative to a actual rap ring as the url above shows from say - Omega?

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The Omega's are a fine choice, but they are expensive. And in a wet canyon environment, because they are aluminum, they wear out quickly. Steel is much more resistant to the abrasive cord we call rappelling ropes.

Omega's would be a good choice for people with more money than me, in canyons that see little traffic. Please don't put them in traderoute canyons, because people (ie noobs) often do not check these things or carry spares. Another nice thing about the Rapides is the gate, which allows them to be placed on webbing without untying the knot (which might be tough).

Tom

Ahh OK - thanks - makes sense. Here in New York State we don't have any real 'canyons' but just crags and caves. But yeah, having the ability to unscrew the Rapide would def be an advantage as well as the cost too!

I've used 2 Omega rap rings to build a retreivable anchor (the "Buckle") and it worked well, but when it fell to the bottom after a few pulls, it would get marked up pretty easily while the anchor was failling down to the bottom on the rap. They are very small dents at this point, but if it gets worse, I might need to look at something more durable. The light weight was an advantage I guess, since it was something I intended to carry with me everywhere. I think steel rings, instead of rapids, may work better singe the circular shape functions better than an oval for this specific use.

At the risk of being chastised by Tom :peepwall:, I’ve been occasionally using some solid casted brass rings. This wasn’t to be cheap or to be different, but because there really isn’t anything else suitable locally unless ordering by mail (which I also do). Before using them I had several of them broken at the materials lab (where I used to work) and each one broke at several times more stress than the aluminum rings.

Here’s one I just retrieved from a somewhat popular canyon that I placed five years ago:

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/789723.JPG
The anchor has been used many times and the rings don’t have any visible wear (which is not true of the sling). I kind of like them since they are much stronger than the hollow aluminum rings and because small rapid links make a harder pull and large ones are heavier. Of course I’m not selling them, advocating them or saying to use them, but they do work for me.