Via Ferratas

I saw the topic of Via Ferratas and the new emplacement in Ogden as a controversial Topic. Whats the Beef? Geeze! We can build new developments at a wildfire pace, new roads to access these developments, more cars to reach these developments, more grocery stores to feed the occupants for these developments, more schools to educate the kids of the parents of these developments.....what happened to recreation for the kids of these developments?

I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America. ACTIVITY and PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES. Granted....Via Ferratas are a part of the history, but supply a wholesome (unlike x-box, nintendo) activity to all. What the HELL is wrong with putting a little bit of 'ferrata' in the rock to provide a wholesome, exciting experience for those not content with sitting eating a bag of Lays?

Just a little (very little) history. Ferrata Lipella. An access to Tofana di Rozes. The Austrians were bombing the hell out of the Italians. The Italians created a Via made of Ferrata to access a butress on the west side of the Tofana. Dug a 1/4 mile tunnel in the solid Dolomite and placed explosives at the end to bring them down. Historic? Yes! Now one of MANY Via Ferratas preserved in Northern Italy. BUT BUT BUT BUT.........They provide recreation for everyone, history or not! I Walked around Tre Cime di Lavaredo on a Sunday Afternoon. Moms and Dads with their young ones on a picnic as the snow flurries made us cover our faces. Did it stop them? Heck No!

Why can't we get out here in Amarica and recreate!? Oh yeah! I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

:ne_nau: :nod: :cool2: :2thumbs: :rockon: :frustrated: :eek2:

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I saw the topic of Via Ferratas and the new emplacement in Ogden as a controversial Topic. Whats the Beef?

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The whole Waterfalls Canyon development thing kinda reeks as a exclusive outdoor disneyland club for the well heeled, Bo. Note that in the plan is a gated community and high priced condo's, golf course, etc.

My beef with via ferratas is that it is a cheap thrill ride at the fair type thing that's not warrented especially on public land, especially given how kids these days, with a small amount of application, can out climb most of us older folks within a month or two of training.

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what happened to recreation for the kids of these developments?

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Can't compete with watching TV, playing video games, hanging out at the mall, or spraying on the internet...(whoops...!).

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I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America. ACTIVITY and PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES. Granted....Via Ferratas are a part of the history, but supply a wholesome (unlike x-box, nintendo) activity to all. What the HELL is wrong with putting a little bit of 'ferrata' in the rock to provide a wholesome, exciting experience for those not content with sitting eating a bag of Lays?

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Be a short term cheap thrill that wouldn't last, and become mundane and boring pretty quickly. Just no challenge.

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Ferrata Lipella. An access to Tofana di Rozes. The Austrians were bombing the hell out of the Italians. The Italians created a Via made of Ferrata to access a butress on the west side of the Tofana. Dug a 1/4 mile tunnel in the solid Dolomite and placed explosives at the end to bring them down.

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Did that route last september (spent a week climbing outside Cortina) on a bad weather day. Pretty cool outing, given the history and position of the troops especially. Had it not been raining, would have much rather been climbing.

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They provide recreation for everyone, history or not!

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Given who we ran into on the route (rich American clients with Italian guides and tourists), I'm not sure everyone, especially kids and/or families, are taking advantage of them, which is a shame.

I

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Walked around Tre Cime di Lavaredo on a Sunday Afternoon. Moms and Dads with their young ones on a picnic as the snow flurries made us cover our faces. Did it stop them? Heck No!

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Makes me wonder if the Euro demographic for such has changed a tad too. Just didn't see that many younger folk out and about over there. If we did, was American couples with their kids.

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Why can't we get out here in Amarica and recreate!?

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I think you're talking about kids these days? Maybe folks take less time for mentoring? Kids aren't into it? Dunno. Its an issue the whole outdoor industry is staring down. Good thing baby boomers are staying active into their later years.

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Oh yeah! I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

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Maybe if you could put on a magic cloak and pick up some power nuggets for your alien blaster...

I don't think a Via Ferrata park will save the non-outdoorsy American youth. They don't seem to even like getting outside to hike. Would be a short term fix for a much bigger problem. Basic physical fitness would be nice.

Seems like with the trail up Angel's Landing and the old Lady Mountain trail (not to mention a bazillion sports climbs around St. George), you already have some "iron ways" to choose from. Ditto them fixed anchor friendly canyoneering routes (ha ha).

And, what's wrong with kids appreciating the natural world, instead of going to Disneyland? Or feeling like they HAVE to go to Disneyland.

Cheers Bo!

-Brian in SLC

nice pics. I hope the one up here in Ogden gets a little more attention.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

I saw the topic of Via Ferratas and the new emplacement in Ogden as a controversial Topic. Whats the Beef?

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The whole Waterfalls Canyon development thing kinda reeks as a exclusive outdoor disneyland club for the well heeled, Bo. Note that in the plan is a gated community and high priced condo's, golf course, etc.

I guess I've jumped the Gun? I need to actually read the whole plan. Didn't know it was an exclusive sort of thing?

My beef with via ferratas is that it is a cheap thrill ride at the fair type thing that's not warrented especially on public land, especially given how kids these days, with a small amount of application, can out climb most of us older folks within a month or two of training.

If this sort of thing gets kids away from long sessions of 'Warcraft', it at least is a start to creating 'Endorfin Junkies' rather than 'Violence Mongers'.

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what happened to recreation for the kids of these developments?

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Can't compete with watching TV, playing video games, hanging out at the mall, or spraying on the internet...(whoops...!).

Gives them something to relate and talk to each other about though.

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I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America. ACTIVITY and PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES. Granted....Via Ferratas are a part of the history, but supply a wholesome (unlike x-box, nintendo) activity to all. What the HELL is wrong with putting a little bit of 'ferrata' in the rock to provide a wholesome, exciting experience for those not content with sitting eating a bag of Lays?

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Be a short term cheap thrill that wouldn't last, and become mundane and boring pretty quickly. Just no challenge.

Challenge it seems is pretty relative. To some, getting out from in front of a computer screen or TV to get another soda pop or beer is a major undertaking!

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Ferrata Lipella. An access to Tofana di Rozes. The Austrians were bombing the hell out of the Italians. The Italians created a Via made of Ferrata to access a butress on the west side of the Tofana. Dug a 1/4 mile tunnel in the solid Dolomite and placed explosives at the end to bring them down.

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Did that route last september (spent a week climbing outside Cortina) on a bad weather day. Pretty cool outing, given the history and position of the troops especially. Had it not been raining, would have much rather been climbing.

It snowed on us during our climbing day, our 2 Ferrata days and our 2 hiking days. Oh well!

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They provide recreation for everyone, history or not!

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Given who we ran into on the route (rich American clients with Italian guides and tourists), I'm not sure everyone, especially kids and/or families, are taking advantage of them, which is a shame.

I was there in October....never saw American Tourists at all? Only Germans, Austrians and Italians.

I

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Walked around Tre Cime di Lavaredo on a Sunday Afternoon. Moms and Dads with their young ones on a picnic as the snow flurries made us cover our faces. Did it stop them? Heck No!

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Makes me wonder if the Euro demographic for such has changed a tad too. Just didn't see that many younger folk out and about over there. If we did, was American couples with their kids.

Maybe so?

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Why can't we get out here in Amarica and recreate!?

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I think you're talking about kids these days? Maybe folks take less time for mentoring? Kids aren't into it? Dunno. Its an issue the whole outdoor industry is staring down. Good thing baby boomers are staying active into their later years.

Boycott Microsoft and Sony? Kinda like boycotting Exon! :haha:

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Oh yeah! I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

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Maybe if you could put on a magic cloak and pick up some power nuggets for your alien blaster...

I don't think a Via Ferrata park will save the non-outdoorsy American youth. They don't seem to even like getting outside to hike. Would be a short term fix for a much bigger problem. Basic physical fitness would be nice.

Takes Moms and Dads to instill healthy choices. I think it starts with the Baby Boomers.

Seems like with the trail up Angel's Landing and the old Lady Mountain trail (not to mention a bazillion sports climbs around St. George), you already have some "iron ways" to choose from. Ditto them fixed anchor friendly canyoneering routes (ha ha).

Canyoneering has stimulated an interest in youth. So has 'Sport Climbing'! Can we say "Hail to Hilti and Powers"!?

And, what's wrong with kids appreciating the natural world, instead of going to Disneyland? Or feeling like they HAVE to go to Disneyland.

It's a giant leap from Disneyland to Nature. Some stepping stones might keep 'em' from stumbling and breaking their desire and will?

Cheers Bo!

I best go look into the whole 'Ferrata' issue that confronts? Sorry for my hasty affront! :eek2:

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Canyoneering has stimulated an interest in youth. So has 'Sport Climbing'! Can we say "Hail to Hilti and Powers"!?

It's a giant leap from Disneyland to Nature. Some stepping stones might keep 'em' from stumbling and breaking their desire and will?

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Yeah, that's a good point too. Sports climbing and fixed anchored canyoneering (and maybe via ferrata) could be the gateway drug into real adventure, and, more outdoorsy stuff for folks.

Some "activation energy" might be required to get the reaction going, eh?

No wonder ATV/OHV stuff is popular... Be interesting to know the demographics of folks that get interested in the outdoors as an adreniline pursuit or throttle junkie, and then find hiking and backpacking, maybe climbing, backcountry skiing, etc, to their liking after that. We can only hope.

Ran into some geocacher folks in Montana last year. They were pretty heavy set. At the trailhead, we exchanged info on the area (Moose Creek trailhead, gateway to the Humbug Spires and specifically for us, the Wedge). They thought we were kinda nuts to be climbing. I told them I didn't care for the geocache thing, as leaving stuff in the forest to maybe never be retrieved at a later date just seemed like trash to me. But, they were so psyched, and, it provided the motivation for them to get out and hike, it made me reconsider the benifit of any type of activity that gets folks out. Nice bunch of folks, too. They had a pretty hard day (I knew from the descriptions they had where the cache was, 3 miles one way). But, there they were. And the more obscure, harder to get to and longer day type caches were what they were psyched about. Even geocachers have braggin' rights!

So, yeah, I see your point about folks just getting out, whatever the motivation.

See you on the hill sometime, Bo, we need to climb together. I got some idears for your area...something adventurous, close by, maybe in Arizona...(think...VRG and ridge climbs, speaking of the Dolomites!).

-Brian in SLC

Not to be mean or anything, and I mean this in a kind way, but here is my own opinion:

I have to admit that I think putting Via Ferratas all over the place is not a good idea in my opinion. To me, it's the equivalent of doing to a mountain wall what the Navajos have done to Antelope Canyon.

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PRESERVATION of the NATURAL RESOURCES

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Really? How much wildlife did you see in the Dolomites?

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I spent just one week in Italy 5 years ago and saw what I would like to see happen in America.

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Like the Alps we can also put rotating restaraunts on some of the peaks to and a thousand more cable cars all over the place.

I don't understand why anyone whom is a climber could ever advocate something like a Via Ferrata. I think it's sad and equivalent to doing what they did to Antelope Canyon.

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I forgot about the impact of some cables and bolts up high that will piss off those that would probably never have gone up there anyway?

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Even if I couldn't climb a wall, some of us enjoy looking at mountain walls without seeing staircases and cables all over them. Whether or not I could climb the wall is irrevelant.

To sum it up, in my opinion, there are plenty of Via Ferratas, Iron Routes, Cable Routes, ski lifts, trams, and roads to the summits of many mountains in the USA, and we don't need to build them up every mountain or wall. :2thumbs:

Not meant to be mean, but . . .

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

To sum it up, there are plenty of Via Ferratas, Iron Routes, Cable Routes, ski lifts, trams, and roads to the summits of many mountains in the USA, and we don't need to build them up every mountain or wall.

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Most ridiculous statement of the year??

Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

Very little wilderness area is accessible to ATVs.

It's okay to let other people enjoy doing different activities. I don't ride ATVs often, but they don't bother me. I haven't ever climbed Via Ferrata, but I plan on it. As I understand, it's a fairly legitimate form of climbing . . not exactly one for the overweight.

If you never want to be bothered by anyone ever again, the Brazilian rainforest is a nice option. Starting your posts off with "not meant to be mean but . . . " and then attacking what everyone else enjoys is not necessarily nice.

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Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

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I said nothing about bolts. I know Brian (above) is pro-bolt for both climbing and canyoneering, but doesn't seem to be too excited about a bunch of Via Ferrata either.

Also, I doubt that 99.9% of climbing is done with bolts or no protection. That's BS. Trad, ice, glacier mountaineering, etc. is still climbing and makes up more than the 0.1% of climbing that you imply.

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Very little wilderness area is accessible to ATVs.

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What does that have to do with Via Ferratas? Would you like to see ATV tracks everywhere as well.

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I haven't ever climbed Via Ferrata, but I plan on it

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That's fine, but I was refering to building them up a bunch of walls/routes like is done in Dolomites and what Bo is refering to(??). Personally, I feel we already have enough fixed line routes around and don't need hundreds more. Do you realize that in the area Bo is refering to and wants to see more of happen to the US, there are no less than 80 via Ferrata in a small area?

If you want to visit routes that are already fixed or modified (by cable, ladder, steps, etc), there are plenty already available.

You go canyoneering. Would you like to see dozens or hundreds of canyons go the way of Antelope?

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It's okay to let other people enjoy doing different activities.

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As long as they don't ruin it for eveyone else, that is fine with me. :2thumbs: You don't have to destroy something to have fun.

A few via Ferrata are fine, but how many is enough. They do attract crowds. Shouldn't there be some areas one could go without seeing works of man?

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/67190.JPG

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

As long as they don't ruin it for eveyone else, that is fine with me.

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Since they don't ruin it for everyone else, I guess we all support via ferratas now.

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

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Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

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I said nothing about bolts. I know Brian (above) is pro-bolt for both climbing and canyoneering, but doesn't seem to be too excited about a bunch of Via Ferrata either.

Also, I doubt that 99.9% of climbing is done with bolts or no protection. That's BS. Trad, ice, glacier mountaineering, etc. is still climbing and makes up more than the 0.1% of climbing that you imply.http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/67190.JPG

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You got me there, I meant to say "fixed protection".

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

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Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

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I said nothing about bolts. I know Brian (above) is pro-bolt for both climbing and canyoneering, but doesn't seem to be too excited about a bunch of Via Ferrata either.

Also, I doubt that 99.9% of climbing is done with bolts or no protection. That's BS. Trad, ice, glacier mountaineering, etc. is still climbing and makes up more than the 0.1% of climbing that you imply.

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Too simplistic, perhaps. I'm pro fixed anchors where appropriate.

I'm mostly a trad type climber. Not sure exact numbers, but, last count was over 120 pitches this year, and, my bet is less than 5% is sport climbing. That's not to say that fixed anchors at the top of trad routes weren't used (and usually appreciated), though.

And...I'd be hugely disappointed to see Via Ferrata become popular here, and would have an especially hard time with them on public land. I've done one in Europe, and, understand some of the history of them, but, they're also very controversial in some locations over there as well. Where they aren't historical, and, are being installed to increase tourism especially.

Fixed anchor climbing percentages? Hard to put a number on. Tons of folks sports climb, but, a ton of folk also peak bag too, without any fixed anchors, for miles at a time. Look how popular Hood is, or Rainier, for instance.

Not to speak for Bo, but, my guess is the gist of his point was that anything to get kids and folks outside for any recreation would be good at this point. Part of me agrees, but, part of me wishes that folks would appreciate a more natural, less adreniline theme park-esque type form of recreation. Ie, not sport rappelling, but, learning how to climb and then rappel like a climber would. Ie, because the position demands it, but, not as a cheap thrill. Via Ferratas seem more like a cheap thrill.

Was funny, I went to the Odgen climbing festival which had some component of it related to the Mahlans area Via Ferrata. One of the shiny, pro festival folks was all bubbly about trying the Via Ferrata and asked me if I couldn't just wait to do it. Didn't want to totally kill her psyche, but, I tried to explain that most climbers absolutely do not like a Via Ferrata, but instead prefer to just rock climb. As a non climber, I'm not sure she understood completely, but, tried to. Was a quasi weird conversation and I'm not sure either one of us understood each other.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Via Ferratas seem more like a cheap thrill.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

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All depends on how you ride the ride.

I climb to push myself, my physical abilities, my mental aptitude. I don't climb for adreneline. Same goes for Mt. Biking, Canyoneering, etc. etc.

People enjoy things in different ways. I don't think that there should be many VFs, but there should be a few, and I'm not going to dictate how someone has to enjoy them.

I don't watch to make sure that everyone that has a handicap sticker in his car is handicapped to the extent that I think he should be. I'm fine with handicap parking places.

We just need to keep in mind that VF is not going to overrun all of the climbing in the West, Global warming isn't going to destroy the planet, and we ourselves are the only people that keep us from enjoying life.


Now - in an attempt to make a related statement(perhaps an example of what I mean), but not shift the topic too much: When we were coming down from Morning Glory Arch, I checked the register. The last people to sign before us complained about people "climbing" on the arch. Obviously they misunderstood rappelling, but that's not the point. They went on for 4 lines about how their trip had been ruined by the other people at the arch.

I just refuse to allow my trips to be ruined because I find some trash, hear some noise, come accross a new bolt, etc. The last line in the register said "Beautiful arch, horrible people." I guess that makes me horrible.

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I don't think that there should be many VFs, but there should be a few

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But price, there are already more than a few modified routes out there. Dozens and dozens of them. Maybe only a few are true Via Ferrata, but plently of modified routes.

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I'm mostly a trad type climber. Not sure exact numbers, but, last count was over 120 pitches this year, and, my bet is less than 5% is sport climbing. That's not to say that fixed anchors at the top of trad routes weren't used (and usually appreciated), though.

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Yes, thanks for more detail.

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And...I'd be hugely disappointed to see Via Ferrata become popular here, and would have an especially hard time with them on public land.

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Me too, and I agree. On private land they are fine I think.

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I've done one in Europe, and, understand some of the history of them, but, they're also very controversial in some locations over there as well.

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Over here, there was a time when such modifications was encouraged (not quite the same as the via Ferrata, but not that different). You mentioned Angels Landing which is an iron route of sorts. Anyway, I

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

One of the shiny, pro festival folks was all bubbly about trying the Via Ferrata and asked me if I couldn't just wait to do it. Didn't want to totally kill her psyche, but, I tried to explain that most climbers absolutely do not like a Via Ferrata, but instead prefer to just rock climb.

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In those situations, I just say "I sure am". Sometimes it's better to be nice to people than to educate them of their stupid ways.

Sounds like a bunch of elitists again hording all of the climbing fun to only the highly skilled.

I'll probably never do either, but whenever there is controversy over making something easier, you know who started it.

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

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Scott, 99.9% of climbing involves small metal bolts, or no protection at all.

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http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/67190.JPG

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:eek2:

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Sounds like a bunch of elitists again hording all of the climbing fun to only the highly skilled.

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I know that one cpmplaint among some climbers in Europe is that modifications such as Via Ferrata bring a lot of people to the mountain that shouldn't be there and are inexperienced. I know it sounds elitist, but some may have a point. Keep in mind that some mountains in Europe see 100 deaths per year and most are from inexperienced climbers.

By way of comparison, mountains like K2 have killed around 50 and Everest around 200 in it's entire history. It's just that deaths on mountains like that get all the publicity. In reality, it's the popular and crowded mountains in places like Europe or Japan that see far more deaths. In two years, Mont Blanc for example kills more than Everest does in 50. Most of it is due to inexperience.

I don't think that via Feratta will necessarily make climbing safer. In fact (forgive if sounds elitist) they can attract a lot of people that are inexperienced that otherwise would never have tried the mountain.

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Keep in mind that some mountains in Europe see 100 deaths per year and most are from inexperienced climbers.

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Where do you get that information? I'm curious, because it doesn't sound correct at all.

The Mont Blanc region sees a number of fatalities per season, but, are you really saying that one single mountain kills 100 folks per year? No way.

And, I'd be curious to see the demographics pointing to "most" being inexperienced.

The issue with Mont Blanc is that it is easily accessable. You take a tram from Les Houches (or some such), to a train, then a short steep hike to get to the standard route, which has a hut to camp in at the start of the glacier, and a hut up higher for rescue (which gets loaded with hurtin' folks!). So, from 3k' in Cham, you get to 12k in a day or so.

Inexperience or not, folks get affected by the huge altitude gain, icey conditions, fast, harsh and changing weather conditions, etc. Easy to make a mistake, experience or no.

And, with some of the deteriorating snow/ice conditions in the alps, I think they even closed the area a couple years ago to climbing as conditions got so dangerous.

I'm, uhhh, 0 for 1 on Mont Blanc due to trying to summit in a lenticular cloud, downclimbing the easy summit ridge...scary at the time...

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I don't think that via Feratta will necessarily make climbing safer. In fact (forgive if sounds elitist) they can attract a lot of people that are inexperienced that otherwise would never have tried the mountain.

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Gal died at Nelson in WV last year? Yep.

Hard to not sound elitist, but, I think the Via Ferrata thing crosses the line in terms of impact.

-Brian in SLC

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Where do you get that information? I'm curious, because it doesn't sound correct at all.

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Oh, you can find that statistic many places. Below is just one:

http://www.westcoastpeaks.com/Peaks/mtblanc.html

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The Mont Blanc region sees a number of fatalities per season, but, are you really saying that one single mountain kills 100 folks per year? No way.

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Yes way and assuming the stats are correct, but it is possible the stats cover the Mont Blanc Massif as Mont Blanc, but not sure. The book Eiger Wall of Death, uses the statistic of 50 per year for Blanc, but was written decades ago.

Here are a few news stories for you:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...ain%20Climbing

One winter (not all Blanc):

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/commen...nts-2005-2006/

The deaths are not all specificially climbers, but include hikers, skiers, tourist, etc. Keep in mind that in 1970, for example, and avalanches in the Chamonix area took out over 100 people in winter alone.

Quotes on Blanc:

Mt. Blanc is likely the deadliest mountain on earth precisely because many beginners want to "hike" up it, while it is a real "big mountain". Last summer an acquaintance of mine from Ireland was killed on the crux section of the "Three Summits" route when his partner feel and pulled him off. Also some friends witnessed a guide and client fall to their deaths on the same route just a few days later. And people fall in crevasses commonly in the Mt. Blanc massif.

The Matterhorn apparently sees several dozens of deaths in most years.
Not all deadly mountains in Europe are in the Alps, however. Apparently in 2004, 48 deaths occurred on Mount Elbrus, but several were snowboarders and skiers.

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The issue with Mont Blanc is that it is easily accessable. You take a tram from Les Houches (or some such), to a train, then a short steep hike to get to the standard route, which has a hut to camp in at the start of the glacier, and a hut up higher for rescue (which gets loaded with hurtin' folks!). So, from 3k' in Cham, you get to 12k in a day or so.

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Exactly. More development = more accessible.

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Hard to not sound elitist, but, I think the Via Ferrata thing crosses the line in terms of impact.

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I agree Brian. It

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Oh, you can find that statistic many places. Below is just one:
http://www.westcoastpeaks.com/Peaks/mtblanc.html

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Pardon my lack of reading comprehension, but, all I see is this:

"Apparently, number of deaths per year is close to 100, and thousands of people have been killed on the massif. "

No statistics at all. And, typical statement tossed out with no supporting data. I'm hopin' you don't believe everything you read on the 'net...

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Yes way and assuming the stats are correct, but it is possible the stats cover the Mont Blanc Massif as Mont Blanc, but not sure. The book Eiger Wall of Death, uses the statistic of 50 per year for Blanc, but was written decades ago.

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No way, Jose. And, there's a HUGE difference between Mont Blanc and the massif. The massif, is, well, massive. Ha!

Again, list some stats if you have them. Posting a story here and there from years gone by doesn't add up to 100 people a year.

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Here are a few news stories for you:

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Understand folks die on that mountain, but, no where near 100 per year.

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The deaths are not all specificially climbers, but include hikers, skiers, tourist, etc. Keep in mind that in 1970, for example, and avalanches in the Chamonix area took out over 100 people in winter alone.

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Now you're really mixing apples, oranges and bananas, especially tossing in ski deaths due to avalanches on the massif.

I'd imagine the French keep pretty close records of such, I just don't have a good source for them.

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Exactly. More development = more accessible.

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For both inexperienced and experienced climbers, though. The mountain doesn't give a rip.

Europe is a different place to climb, to be sure. Partly its appeal is the access and amenities. They've lived in their mountains for many, many years and the mountains are so much more part of the culture.

Er something.

Anyhoo, a bit off the main topic of Via Ferrata.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

Once again, we come full cirlcle back to balance.

You're right about VF being high impact, but no more so than a road. I don't think there should be many, but one or two in the state of Utah will not have a major impact on wilderness.

The innexperienced are such because they haven't done this stuff a lot. How do you expect them to become experienced if you don't let them try?

Darwinism will weed out a few. Fear will weed out most. The rest will join us on the forum sooner than later.

Anyway, I hope I don't always come across as a total dick. I just get upset when people put purity of climbing above safety and solitude above enjoyment.

There's a lot of world out there.

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I don't think there should be many, but one or two in the state of Utah will not have a major impact on wilderness.

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One or two is fine by me. I was just refering to the amount in a place like the Dolomites happening here.

Anyway, if anyone wants some exciting modified routes, there are plenty.

A few suggestions are Mee Canyon or Angels Landing.

If they are too tame, I might suggest the Art Murry Cable Bypass Trail in Canyonlands NP. Now that will get anyone's blood flowing even though the cable is there. I will be happy to provide beta.

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The innexperienced are such because they haven't done this stuff a lot. How do you expect them to become experienced if you don't let them try?

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Yes, and they should try. I am a pretty inexperienced climber too, so don't get the wrong idea. However, inexperienced climbers need to know when to turn back and need to respect the mountain (or canyon). I know in the past, I was a lot less careful than I am now.

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No statistics at all.

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That "statistic" is in several places, not just there. I've seen it in books, magazines, and many places on the net, including SP, but as you say, they are not always reliable.

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And, there's a HUGE difference between Mont Blanc and the massif. The massif, is, well, massive. Ha!

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Maybe so, but I was just speculating that the author may have been refering to the massif. The book says simply "Mont Blanc". PS, if you haven't read Wall of Death, it's a facinating read and highly recommended.

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Understand folks die on that mountain, but, no where near 100 per year.

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How many do die then? :ne_nau: If you find the real figure you should post it because I would like to know too.

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

One or two is fine by me. I was just refering to the amount in a place like the Dolomites happening here.

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Hmmm....

Problem is, folks would want them on the "inaccessable" summits. I can't imagine one on the Grand Teton, for instance.

Slippery slope, to be sure. But, I can't imagine them on public land here.

And the proper equipment for them is kinda spendy, and very specific to that sport.

Funny I say all this, then don't support these guys chopping the bolts on the Cerro Torre, or, removing the ladder on the North Ridge of Everest...

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Maybe so, but I was just speculating that the author may have been refering to the massif. The book says simply "Mont Blanc". PS, if you haven't read Wall of Death, it's a facinating read and highly recommended.

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Got a number of books on the Eiger, including Roth's. JH the III's tome, The Eiger Obsession is really good too, but, touches on more his relationship with his father and his climbing history, etc. Supposed to compliment the IMAX movie. Just out, and a fine read.

One of the better Eiger books is Eiger: the vertical arena by Anker.

Hard to beat the original Die Wiesse Spinne, though. Amazing read and a forever classic. Harrer's White Spider. If you've ever seen a copy of Um Die Eiger Nordwand its pretty interesting...especially seeing the lads next to Himmler and Hitler...

The Eiger Sanction is super too, and, you get to see Zion(s) in it as well as the Totem Pole. Filmed right on the north face.

I've looked down from the train tunnel...and have though, I want no part of that... A friend just got crunched on it...only 2 hours from the summit...gripping story, can't wait to see the pic's. Yikes yikes.

I'll take Eiger history for a 100, Alex...

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Understand folks die on that mountain, but, no where near 100 per year.

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How many do die then? If you find the real figure you should post it because I would like to know too.

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I don't know. But, I'd imagine the deaths up there get similar press to deaths in the Tetons, Denali, etc. Especially in the local papers. 100 a year seems very high for climbing on Mt Blanc. If I had to guess, I'd maybe guess 10 or less every season. It'd be a low number, especially compared to the number of puke stains leaving the hut up there on the standard route (just follow the vomit and you can't get off route!).

Ahhh, Europe...canyon rendezvous in the Ecrins area next summer (08)...Mont Aiguille! Etc etc (have to re-read Wymper's Scrambles Amongst the Alps too...).

-Brian in SLC

I did find something directly from Alan Arnette (I assume you know who he is). Certainly he is a reliable source. According to Alan:

http://www.alanarnette.com/alan/montblancfaq.htm

Sadly, over 1,000 people have died climbing Mont Blanc.

That's not the 100 per year often quoted, but is certainly a whole lot.

Same is on Peakware:

http://www.peakware.com/peaks.html?pk=184

I would definately trust Allen though. He definately knows his stuff on mountain stats. At least he would be a reliable source.

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Originally Posted by price1869

The innexperienced are such because they haven't done this stuff a lot. How do you expect them to become experienced if you don't let them try?

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Not to get too far off topic, but this is something that I've always wondered about rock climbing. As a non-climber, reading various forums and going to gyms (The Front, etc) it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs. If you can't climb 5.10a on lead, you might as well go home. Experienced climbers always talk about how great and accepting the community is (unless your name is Tony) but it sure doesn't seem like that from the outside.

When I heard there was a Via Ferratta in Ogden I wanted to check it out. I know it's not "climbing", but it seems considerably more accessible to me (as a non-climber) and would be a decent introduction to actual climbing.

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I did find something directly from Alan Arnette (I assume you know who he is). Certainly he is a reliable source. According to Alan:
http://www.alanarnette.com/alan/montblancfaq.htm
Sadly, over 1,000 people have died climbing Mont Blanc.
That's not the 100 per year often quoted, but is certainly a whole lot.
Same is on Peakware:
http://www.peakware.com/peaks.html?pk=184
I would definately trust Allen though. He definately knows his stuff.

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Why trust him? Because he has a website? An American that climbed Mont Blanc once with a guide in '95 is some expert on it? Hardly.

I've never heard of him. Information on his site seems wildly inaccurate, after a quick perusal, or a least misleading.

There is nothing out there on him or by him that would make me suppose he is some kind of reliable source.

Again, maybe on the massif, not on the mountain itself.

-Brian in SLC

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Why trust him? Because he has a website?

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I thought you may had known about or heard of him. Writes a lot of mountaineering articles.

Anyway, I know him and have done a few trips with him, but that alone doesn

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it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs.

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:ne_nau:
When I started rock climbing about 15 years ago I had a good experience and felt very welcomed. Most of my experiences have been good as I've ventured into different types of climbing as well (alpine, ice, trad etc). I'm not really into the rock climbing culture these days, so maybe things have changed. But it's probably like any of these little sub cultures, where you're going to have some elitist pricks that are very vocal, but when it comes down to it most are pretty good about welcoming new folks. I can guarantee there's some people in this forum that would be happy to take you climbing. You're welcome to come with us when we go. I don't do a whole lot of rock climbing these days, but still do a lot of ice climbing in the winter.

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As a non-climber, reading various forums and going to gyms (The Front, etc) it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs.

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Yes sometimes, but don't confuse a wilderness or Leave No Trace (or at least as little as possible) ethic as being against any noob.

Any post I made is not directed towards noobs. Also, no one should get the idea that just because I don't like the idea of Via Ferrata, it is because I am a good rock climber either. I fully admit that I am not a very good rock climber at all.

When I said a lot of deaths are attributed to inexperience on (any popular mountain, not just Blanc) popular and accessible mountains, I didn

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

When I say these things, it is not against noobs. I am mostly one too.

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That's gotta be the biggest mis-statement of the year. You're probably the biggest non-noob around here. I appreciate all of the advice and information you give here.

I wasn't accusing you (or really anyone on this board) of being anti-noob. It was more a reflection of the time I spent reading giant flame wars over on MountainProject.com last summer. Although, Jinx's recent posting here sure comes close to the vitriol I've seen elsewhere. (Honestly? Threating to cut someone's belay? That's not cool.)

Anyway, enough thread jacking from me.

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Honestly? Threating to cut someone's belay? That's not cool

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Yeah I totally agree. Invitation stands to come with me climbing. I won't cut your rope :haha:

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That's gotta be the biggest mis-statement of the year. You're probably the biggest non-noob around here.

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Nah, not really. I was serious. Although some may get the wrong idea, really am mostly a noob when it comes to things technical. I guess I've climbed some fairly hard rock towers, but someone else was always leading. Have done some ice, but not that much. I have climbed glaciated peaks, but nothing harder than AD. I know there are many here (Brian included) that are way more experienced in climbing than I am.

I do consider myself to be an experienced hiker, but not an experienced (technical) climber. I was serious when I am claiming myself to be a noob.

Thanks for the compliment.

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I wasn't accusing you (or really anyone on this board) of being anti-noob.

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Yeah, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't against noobs in case anyone might mis-understand.

Oh yeah, enough thread jacking from me too. Sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I thought you may had known about or heard of him. Writes a lot of mountaineering articles.

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Dude, I spray a bunch on the 'net, and almost none of my stuff is vetted through a publisher! Doesn't mean I'm reliable.

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Again, maybe on the massif, not on the mountain itself.

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But, what makes you think that? So far you haven't shown anything to the contrary. What is so unbelievable about 1000 people dying on Blanc?

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100 folks per day was a bit more unbelievable.

Given that it was ascended in the late 1700s for the first time, and they say in season, between 3 and 400 people per day try it, it certainly gets the traffic.

Interesting site:

http://www.markseaton.com/montblancadvice.pdf

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What have you seen to the contrary?

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Doesn't seem to jibe with accident rates. Unusually high number.

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The guiding services claim that over 20,000 people climb Mont Blanc per year and another 10,000 try to.

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Yet success rates are 50% is all?

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I can start a Summitpost thread and see if anyone has some real data. Certainly it's available somewhere. Here is the thread, so we can follow along. Let's see if anyone can come up with a real source:
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/vie...=374745#374745
There are many European members so hopefully someone at least knows of something and can post the source.

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Good idear! Be interesting to see what bubbles up.

Thanks,

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by kris247

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Originally Posted by price1869

The innexperienced are such because they haven't done this stuff a lot. How do you expect them to become experienced if you don't let them try?

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Not to get too far off topic, but this is something that I've always wondered about rock climbing. As a non-climber, reading various forums and going to gyms (The Front, etc) it seems like there is absolutely no tolerance for noobs. If you can't climb 5.10a on lead, you might as well go home. Experienced climbers always talk about how great and accepting the community is (unless your name is Tony) but it sure doesn't seem like that from the outside.

When I heard there was a Via Ferratta in Ogden I wanted to check it out. I know it's not "climbing", but it seems considerably more accessible to me (as a non-climber) and would be a decent introduction to actual climbing.

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That's a pretty interesting viewpoint.

What some folks have a small amount of tolerance (to put it mildly, perhaps) is when someone who isn't experienced sprays advice or information like they are. So, might be more along those lines than a general intolerance of noobs. See rec.climbing and search for "Lord Slime" for instance.

I travel a bunch and get to "see" different climbing communities. SLC is by far one of the friendliest places. On the 'net? Not always. And, some of the vitriol is for fun for some folks, so, you have to sort that out too. But, really, as a beginner or not, this is a very friendly place to climb.

I can't really see the Via Ferrata thing as a gateway to climbing. Folks kinda diss climbing gyms as an intro to outside climbing, but, most hardcorp folk use them for training (a bunch!) and I think they're a great intro, given that some stuff is better learned outside. Via Ferrata is an artificial means to get position and/or ascend a formation (or descend). You really don't pick up the skills or learn the body position or movement beyond grabbing ladder rungs and steel cable. There is no sublety, etc.

Anyhoo, interesting. Climbers are constantly accusing each other of elitism. I've always thought that climbing has more rules than golf!

Pretty funny when you think about it.

-Brian in SLC

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Given that it was ascended in the late 1700s for the first time, and they say in season, between 3 and 400 people per day try it, it certainly gets the traffic.

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Another interesting article on how popular it is:

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article1578709.ece

PS, here is yet another calim that there have been 1000 deaths:

http://www.terragalleria.com/mountai...x/mb-easy.html

See last part of "What makes this mountain so special?"

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Originally Posted by jumar

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Honestly? Threating to cut someone's belay? That's not cool

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Yeah I totally agree. Invitation stands to come with me climbing. I won't cut your rope :haha:

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Thanks! My doctor would probably frown on me climbing right now (had my ACL reconstructed two months ago) but I would love to take you up on the offer in the future.

I did find a few things of interest, but nothing up to date or comprehensive.

http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/...e=02&page=0074

Anyway here are some stats for some of the regions in the Alps as a whole, but nothing Mont Blanc specific. It has stats for Chamonix 1987-1997, but of course Chamonix covers more than Mont Blanc. On the other hand, the Chamonix side only covers the west (French) side of Blanc as the east side is in Italy. It does appear to be well under 100 though, at least for Blanc alone?

Either way, several hundred climbers die in the Alps each year. Scary. Be careful out there.