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I'm not really interested in actually going in this cave but I'm curious as to where it is in Neff's canyon. It's like the 10th deepest cave in America and no one that I talk to actually knows how to get to it (or has even heard of it). I would like to take a hike to it sometime and was wondering if anyone knows how to get to it. Thanks
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Thanks. I knew it was gated I've just always heard about this cave but have never been able to find it. I was heading up the main trail looking for it that way. I assumed there would be at least a small unmaintained trail to it. I was just looking in the wrong place. :(
I swear I walked by it 20 times and never paid attention to it. I live about 3 mins from the canyon and hike it a lot! Is this a natural cave or mining? Is there anything cool to explore inside? Who owns the key and what are the reqs for getting the key?
Thank you!
Found my own answers. I can't believe I never heard about this. I lived in the Olympus Cove for over 8 years now and the deepest cave in US is located in my backyard!
http://www.desertusa.com/geofacts/caves.html
Story behind the cave http://www.caves.org/grotto/timpgrotto/Neffs.html
yeah, it's pretty impressive being such deep cave. i have explored it VIRTURALLY through a long series of photos andrew mclean had posted on his website many many moons ago (5+ years?). but i think since he's redone his site(possibly earlier), he's removed access to it (as well as a ton of other stuff). a google search doesn't seem to find it either. if anyone has any good sites with photos, it'd be cool to see it again.
Tom Jones used to have a TR on his latest rave index. http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/index.htm It was the only photos I had ever come across. I went to find them yesterday and couldn't. I email Tom and this was his reply:Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan
It looked like a lot of rappeling just to turn around and jug all the way up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Jones
James
Neffs is actually "managed" by the National Park Service, or National Monuments or soemthing like that. They are very very very strick about what can be done i the cave and what can be published about the cave.
Neffs is actually the 7th deepest in the continental united sates. There are some lave tubes that bump it down a few notches but the are in Hawaii, and in my opinion lava tubes dont count. Especially when the oftne have "skylihgts" all throughout the tube and they never make it more than a few feet belwo the surface.
http://www.caverbob.com/usadeep.htm
sorry kazak, you'll have to tone down your braggin' now. no exaggeratin'!!
Wow. I am still impressed at what I have read today, now I have to tell everyone I live by the deepest cave in US :2thumbs:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazak
Well its not the deepest anymore, in fact it is not even the deepest in Utah anymore.
When Neffs was discovered it was the deepest in the US, for several years.
Actually you can publish any damn thing you want to about the cave. There is no law against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
I get tired of all the bullshit stories about you "can't" publish this or that.... its a scare tactic that I see commonly used in regards to caves and Indian ruins.
Now..... Is it ethical to broadband and spray this type information is a different subject.
:cool2:
They agreement we have is very strick about what we can and cant do or say about the cave, law or not, that is what the cave management plans states and we must abide to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
As I mentioned..... a matter of ethics, not law....
Just curious.... is there some place on-line where the cave management plan can be viewed?
I went hiking around Neff's yesterday. I was over in the vicinity where Scott shows on the topo map. I found what looked like a mine shaft that went in horizontally for some ways but for some reason I don't think this is Neff's Canyon Cave. Does anyone know what this looks like? Is that mine looking tunnel the cave?? I was expecting to see some kind of metal cap or grading on top of a hole in the ground???
There are a few old mines up that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcirque
When you find Neffs you will know it. It is exactly as you described. A hole int he ground with a metal grate over it.
Neff's is indeed gated, and what you saw was likely just a mine shaft. Just a few feet southeast of the center mark on the map Scott linked to is the USGS map symbol for an adit or mine entrance. I don't believe the cave itself is actually listed on the USGS map (I certainly can't see it on there anywhere).Quote:
Originally Posted by mcirque
I finally got around to finding this cave. I'm attaching some pictures of the cave entrance in a follow up post. I was only able to find it using a GPS. If you have never been there before it would be pretty hard to find unless you had good descriptions of which wash to bushwack up. I found a fairly decent trail about 50 feet before the wash that I followed until it ran out. Then I followed the GPS coordinates over into the wash. On the way down I followed the wash and it was a lot more bushwacking.
A couple other things of note about this cave. It is about 1.5 to 2.0 miles from the Neffs Trailhead to the cave and about 2000 vertical feet of gain. It took me about 45 minutes to find it. You could probably get there a little faster if you already know where it is. Also I read that you can see the cave from the valley from "certain grotto members homes". You definitely can't see the cave rock outcrop or entrance from the valley. If you follow the wash down a ways you could see the valley a little bit.
I also find it extremely interesting that there isn't much known about this cave on the internet, pictures, or accounts of it (even though it is in the top 20 of deepest caves in the US). About the only thing you can find is an account of the first cave explorers from the 1950's. Even then, it's only found on google's cached pages. It seems as though any info about it has been removed or taken down. Here was where the account was supposed to be:
http://www.caves.org/grotto/timpgrotto/Neffs.html
here's where google's copy is:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a
Seems to me like cavers or the USFS are pretty tight lipped about this place. Not sure why. It's capped to keep the riff raff out. Too bad since it seems to have some interesting history behind it. If anyone out there has any photos of the inside or cave a map I'd love to see them.
Fascinating article. This is like the Everest of caves pretty much. I find it odd that people aren't jumping at the chance to be the "first" to explore it. I suspect there was discovered a tribe of Pech and the government is covering it up. :haha:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
As long as this thread is getting bumped I’d love to see this question answered…
Last I heard, Neff's is managed by the U.S. Forest Service, with a local Grotto serving as keeper of the key.
Though the cave has a storied history, it is pretty much a horror hole with poor rock (loose shale walls in some places), sketchy anchors, much slimy downclimbing and is sorely lacking in beauty or allure. I did it once and would never do it again (and that's coming from a former enthusiastic caver). NOT recommended.
The nature of the place precludes anything like a quick rescue ever happening there. "Very dangerous - you go first."
Which is the main reason I haven't done it yet. Lost interest...Plenty of other cool caves in UtahQuote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
This is exactly why I want to hear and see other peoples accounts of this cave. I have no desire to go in that thing (or ever will go in it). I will stick to kayaking, mountaineering, peak bagging, etc. However, I love learning about other peoples adventures. I'm just completely surprised by the lack of info on this place. You simply can't find pictures, cave maps, or accounts in the public domain (other than the one I posted above). I guess if it is just a crack in the earth of shale goo it's not worth talking about??Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
The best account of exploration in Neff's Cave (and many other U.S. caves) is in William Halliday's book Depths of the Earth published in 1966. Neff's gets its own 14 page chapter titled "Our Deepest Cave." Neff's was indeed the deepest American cave for many years and to date only 12 American caves have been found that are deeper.
Please try and be at least somewhat open to the idea that locational secrecy can be a tool to protect caves from abuse, vandalism, and closure. The USFS will not give you the location because they are required by law not to. The Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988 makes it illegal for them to provide that information to the public. The FCRPA also makes cave locations ineligible for FOIA requests.
The reason Tom Jones and others cannot publish trip reports is because they went on a trip with a trip leader that signed a permit saying that such information would not be disseminated. It is not a law, nor a scare tactic. It is something that everyone on trips to Neff's agrees to in order to help protect the cave. It is part of the Salt Lake Grotto's agreement with USFS for managing Neff's cave. I'm sure that the management plan is not online, but should be obtainable from USFS.
This particular cave has to be gated and kept quiet so that it is not overrun with rescues. Sometimes a cave's nature and/or location demand some amount of secrecy for its protection. You all have noticed that this challenging, vertical cave is located right next to suburbia. If the cave was open and known to all, the rescues in there would be horrible and numerous enough that it would probably force USFS to implement an all-out closure. I don't need to remind anyone in Utah what can happen to a cave that is the scene of a gruesome accident and rescue.
None of these measures would be necessary for Neff's if 2 million people had not decided to move in right next to it. But they did, so here we are. If enough maps, directions, photos of the entrance, etc. get published online, then it is only a matter of time before some idiot goes up there, cuts the lock off and gets themselves hurt/killed. Then see what that does for public access.
I have bottomed Neff's once, and don't mind if I never do it again. Hank is right that it is something of a horror hole. I am glad I did it, and it is fun, but it is not really as beautiful or even as interesting as many Utah caves. Nowadays, it is not even the deepest cave in Utah, but is often used by folks training up to do deeper caves.
For now, if you want to see Neff's Cave, get yourself trained in single rope technique (SRT), caving safety, and cave ethics, and then contact USFS for access. It is the best deal we are going to get. Please don't screw it up!
Your statement is not exactly true.... after reading through both "The Federal Cave Protection Act of 1988" and the referenced "Section 552 of title 5, United States Code" here is what I get out of it.....Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
The government agency, which in this case is the USFS, is not required to give you the location of the cave under the Freedom of Information Act. The information can be managed and dispensed to those the USFS deems worthy...
"Illegal for them" and "Not required" are different animals..... at least to me..... which is why outsiders usually take cavers with a large gain of salt....
Not sure I really get your point. Here is the exact wording:
Sec. 5. CONFIDENTIALITY OF INFORMATION CONCERNING NATURE AND LOCATION OF SIGNIFICANT CAVES.
- (a) IN GENERAL.-Information concerning the specific location of any significant cave may not be made available to the public under section 552 of title 5, United States Code, unless the Secretary determines that disclosure of such information would further the purposes of this Act and would not create a substantial risk of harm, theft, or destruction of such cave.
This does not say "not required", it says "may not be made available....unless."
In the case of Neff's, they have determined that disclosure of such information to the general public would NOT further the purposes of this Act and WOULD create substantial risk. Unless they deem that disclosure would further the purposes of the Act, then they are not allowed to make it available.
You are correct, they may give out information to whomever they wish, as long as doing so does not violate FCRPA. You are not correct in your interpretation of FCRPA. Providing a map or directions to the general public on a sign or a website would most certainly create substantial risk and violate FCRPA, at least in this case. Therefore, doing so would be illegal.
Just trying to shed some light on why there is secrecy involved in the management of this cave. It was nearly shut down soon after its discovery in the 1950s due to rescues and public outcry. The current arrangement has allowed it to stay open to some visitation. You may use whatever size grain of salt you wish, but I am merely trying to speak the truth, not hide it or twist it.
Could you give some examples of why "outsiders" must take cavers with a large grain of salt? I could easily say the same of climbers, but would not want to paint with so broad a brush. There are a few trustworthy ones out there. Same goes for cavers.
No big deal really.... I just take some exception to your interpetation and syntax... to me you make this secert shit sound really scary..... it's not...Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoncaver
And you just gotta love the interwebs... finding the location of the cave takes a whole two minutes....
Waypoint and map of Neff's
The only way three guys can keep a secret is if two of them are dead. :lol8:
And yes.... I can understand why you want to keep Joe Sixpack out of the cave.
Yeah that's the same waypoint I found when I was first looking for the cave.
Scary how? No need to be afraid little feller.
Now I'm sure I don't get your point. Care to splain?
We’re always trying to close the barn door after the horse is out. With all this easy to find information on the internet I think it’s clear that we should cement shut the entrance to Neff’s before someone gets killed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
(Please note: this post is very sarcastic.)
LOL Always has been and always will be.............unless you are well known in a grotto you will not get into the good caves.........
Thats why I quit caving years ago.......got tired of the BS. You won't get a location and if you do someone always has the key that won't givie it to you. USFS or BLM locks en up and closes them for 'protection', alot of times on the request of cavers who 'will manage it' wanting their private reserve. what a laugh
I was a VERY active member of the timp grotto years ago, I went to meetings, I wrote letters to keep caves open, we even donated time to help with the "relighting" of timp cave when that was being done all to still be "shuned" by the "founding" members of the grotto, We finally said to hell with it, let them have their "private reserve" of caves. If you want to join the "Stonecutters secret society" you might as well become a grotto member. Just don't plan on seeing any of the "good caves" for the first couple years your a member...Quote:
Originally Posted by bobb169
All links no work. conspiracy?
It's because some of the cavers turn into whiny little bitch's when someone posts a waypoint or TR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Western
Neff's Cave
N40° 40' 17", W111° 45' 10" - WGS84 datum
Shane, this is one area where you are off-base. I wonder if the "nothing but" is coming from your personal history in canyoneering? Secret canyons and secret caves are different animals. Caves (esp. ungated ones) are often kept secret to protect the cave itself, bat colonies, other sensitive biota, and/or other features of scientific interest. Caves and underground ecosystems are much more delicate than canyons and require greater care to preserve them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Granted, there is a self-serving element to keeping certain caves secret, but "nothing but" goes too far. In the case of Neff's there is fear among cavers that too much visitation will lead to accidents, rescues, and eventual closure by the Forest Service. This fear is perhaps unjustified in its intensity, but many such closures have happened in the caving world. Once a cave becomes enough of a nuisance to land managers, it can reasonably be closed (and most caves are relatively easy to close, technologically speaking (just pour some concrete, as in Nutty Putty). It is a shame that the public seems to have so little control over access to "public lands" but it is a fact of modern life.
Whether posting Neff's coordinates will result in more visitation is moot; I do wonder why you are posting them here, if they are so easy to obtain via standard internet search?
Unfortunately closing caves is all too common. Hopefully we're all caving responsibly to not provide an excuse for a land owner to want to close them off permanently, like so many caves.
It just piss me off all the crap that goes on with regards to Neff's... The waypoint is posted on the Wiki page concerning Neff's.... but the cavers are always playing games with that waypoint and changing one number so it's miles off.... I stay out of the wiki waypoint fight, but I watch it with amusement. But I do feel giving people wrong information intentionally is a safety issue, not to mention really chickenshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
If the forest service wants to regulate the cave that is their business, that is what we hired them to do, but all this other bullshit about messing with waypoints and using scare tactic's to get the uninformed to pull down webpages is bullshit. I have no desire to descend Neff's, but I enjoy seeing pictures and reading TR's from those that have.
I did Neff's a few years ago and it is not one I would do again either. It is sharp, wet, very dangerous and has virtually no decorations. It is an exhausting cave to do and one that made me very nervous while downclimbing. One person in our group almost got stuck in one spot and again nearly fell while down climbing a 30 ft deep crack.
I posted pictures of the cave on my blog (www.utahcaves.blogspot.com) but was forced to remove them. In the agreement to go in the cave you agree to not post pictures of the cave on the internet (a portion of the agreement I apparently overlooked).
It really is not worth doing other than to say that you have done it. The hike up to it is pretty grueling as well. If you want to do it you can obtain permission, but I would recommend Main Drain over Neffs any day. Now that is an amazing experience!