Nutty Putty Cave closed to novices
By Jared Page
Deseret Morning News
PROVO
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Nutty Putty Cave closed to novices
By Jared Page
Deseret Morning News
PROVO
Speaking of Blow and gates....
Blowhole also got gated recently. I think it's in the same area.
I wonder how long until someone use the ol' "4x4 and chain" as a key?
:five:
Aww shucks...somebody has discovered my plan! :naughty:Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I've heard about these caves for years, and just never made it down. People would tell me they would bring dates down there, (I think it was accadacca :haha: ) and it sounded fun.
Maybe permits will cut down on vandalism? :ne_nau: But it means that I'll never see the caves now, so maybe I don't care what happens to them....
I agree this sucks. There really wasn't too much vandalism inside the cave. Some trash but it wasn't horrendous. I always tried to grab a few pieces as I left. I've taken dates down there as well. It was always a good time. I think they are taking something really cool away with this whole permit thing. I wonder what kinda of qualifications you gotta have now.
Its all my fault!!!
Yes you heard me. Its my fault. After dragging people out of the cave a few times I contacted SILTA, I bourgh Jon to one of the early meetings with them, then after several meetings with them over the course of atleast 3 years you now see the result.
Actually truth be told I ahve been out fo the caving loop almost compltely since Labor Day. After working my butt off at regional with no support and then getting publicaly ridiculed I decided I had enough of the caving politics. I am not oging to go into a rant here (well maybe just a little one) but if cavers would open up to the idea that Education is the key to protecting the caves and not secrecy things would be different. I was the presidnet of the Timp Grotto and havent been back to a meeting Since my last meeting as president in December 2005. I must say I dont miss it at all.
Anyway Jon is really the one that gets the credit. Last I was involved SILTA was trying to get UVSC and the BSA to signa lease and have a certain ammount liability insurance. I am not sure how in the world Jon was able to pull off getting control by the grotto. We are a not for porfit group with no money and no insurance.
In the end it will be a good thing. I can tell you for certain though that if people would follow guidelines things like 2 deep leadership for scouts a nd everyone wear a helmet the cave would still be open today. I know I am preaching the choir here but if you guys want stuff open to you be smart and learn how to do it right.
Actually Blowhole was done a few days prior to Nutty Putty.Quote:
Originally Posted by jumar
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You guys make it sound like its closed for good. All that this does is ensure you are doing the cave safely. Helemt two lights etc... If you are willing to do that (which anyone with half a brain should) then you can still get access.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombeech
Spencer, have you actually read the conditions that must be met before you can acquire a permit? Read this entire page and see if you'd care to change your "helmet and two lights" statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
No my statement is accaurate. This is what I was referring to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Udink
9. The groups will have proper equipment and dress for caving. All participants are required to have a helmet, helmet-mounted light, extra dependable light sources, proper boots, and clothing for each member of the group. A first-aid kit and a short 15-ft hand line are strongly recommended for each group,
And if you cant meet the other requirements that are listed there you dont belong in the cave.
What is there in the requirements that you disagree with?
Yes, item 9 in the requirements does mention proper lighting and a helmet. But you said, "All that this does is ensure you are doing the cave safely. Helemt two lights etc...," when actually it does a LOT more than that. You made it sound as though the requirements are as minimal as wearing a helmet and a light, when there are 14 requirements and 10 sub-requirements under item #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
#1, limiting it to certain times. It's a CAVE, what does the time of day have to do with anything inside a cave?Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
#2a, leaders must be at least 21. So a 20-year-old is incapable of having a safe caving experience?
#3, nobody under 14 years of age allowed. I think most 10- to 13-year-olds are perfectly capable of handling Nutty Putty.
And last, but not least, simply the fact that you must get a permit to enter a place that is much less dangerous than thousands of other areas located on SITLA land which do NOT require a permit. There are natural hazards everywhere, and Nutty Putty Cave is on the low end of the scale when it comes to how dangerous it can be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Udink
I have personally spent many hours in the cave on rescues in a 2 week period of time. The people entered late at night. People get bored at night and do stupid things. I dont even think all 21 year olds are responsible. The last rescue we had chisel a 23 year old out because he was trying to squeeze under a rock in the maze there was no reason for him to try to queeze through that. Insurance companies go by 25 years of age, why do you think that is? At 21 you are most likely in college and have not matured. I would dare argue that 21 is not even old enough.
Sure a 20 year old can have a safe experience but they are not mature enough to lead trip, some perhaps, but those that are have all the ones that are not to thank. Being old enough to be safe and being smart and mature enough to understnad that its not a playplace are two different things.
to answer you third question, again sure there are some 10-13 year olds that can do it safely, with the right leadership that wouldnt be a problem. The BSA guidelins require people to be 14 or older to do any high adventure and I dont argue that age limit.
As far as there being thousands of mines and caves on SITLA land, you are terribly wrong. I think you might be a bit confused with what SITLA is comapred to the BLM and Forest service. The 4 natural caves now have gates. Most of the caves are either on BLM, Forest service or private land. There are a mere handful on SITLA land. SITLA is not in the business of managing land, they have no budget for that. SITLA is State Institutional Trust Lands Administration. Their only purpose is to hang onto the land and make money for utah eductaion either by leasing the land for mineral rights or selling the land. and its a rare unfortunate circumstance that the caves happened to be on their land. Although on the other hand had they been on BLM land the gates would have been done several years sooner.
Rather than whining because that the cave is gated you should really be thankful that the grotto worked so hard to keep it open. SITLAs answer is the cheapest lowest liability approach, that would have meant a bulldozer and cement truck and seal the entrance permanently.
The simple bottom line is that if you want to be able to go on peoples land, respect and abide by the rules. Its their land and if you dont like the rules then you have no right being there. Its unfortunate that a select few punks get everything closed for the rest of us. But you should feel lucky with Nutty Putty, if you are responsible you can still go to it. Stop your whining, print out the form and request a trip, its not that hard....
I didn't say anything about other caves, I said other "areas." Cliffs, rocks, and all sorts of natural hazards exist everywhere on SITLA land. The decision to gate the cave had nothing to do with how dangerous it is, but rather how much publicity it's received. This is a political issue, NOT a safety issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
The cave is no longer "open." Before it was gated, I was able to go whenever I wanted with whomever I wanted, and I did so often WITHOUT getting into any trouble. Now, I do not qualify for requirements 2c and 2h, and with #3 I can no longer bring any of my kids, so the burden on people like me is too great to go on a simple day trip there. Simply put, it's just not worth the hassle.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
The deciscion tothe gate the cave had everything to do with how many resuces there have been in the cave. I havent been a trip in the cave yet that I havent seen blood somewhere. But then again I notice things like that more than you problaby would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Udink
Wait a sec was that typo or what? You said you dont qualify for 2c???? You are saying that you, the almight Udink that knows every inch of the cave better than anyone is not cabable overcoming the obstacles on your trip? Either that was a typo or you are reading to much into it..
2h: is just knowing first aid and knowing what to do if someone gets hurt. If you dont know this then stay out of the cave. Again I think you are reading too much into it. It does state any specific first aid certifications it just says you ahve to have training. If you dont know how to stop a bleeding cut or splint broken bone then stay home on your couch with a phone in your hand.
and in regard to 3: I thought you were a college student down in Price? Is there more than one Udink out there? If thats not you then I have you confused with a differnt Udink.
I am so confused......
We'll just have to agree to disagree for SITLA's reasoning behind gating the cave. However, according to estimates by the Timp Grotto, there are about 5,000 visits to the cave each year. Of those, there are about 2 rescues each year. So the rate of serious problems comes out to be about 0.04% of overall visits to the cave. Again, I don't see it as an issue of safety, but more a political issue. They don't want the bad publicity, and they don't want to get sued. All other SITLA land is open to the public for recreation (and probably has a similar accident rate), but when they close it down due to safety concerns as well, then maybe I'll believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
Since the Timp Grotto will be determining which applicants are "experienced cavers," I seriously doubt that I'd fall under that category. I don't know the secret handshake.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
Again, the interpretation of "adequate first-aid training" is left open to the Timp Grotto. I have no formal training whatsoever, so I doubt they'd pass me on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
Well, I'm not a college student any more (haven't been for a long time), but I do live in Price. I take issue with #3 because it means my children won't get a chance to go to Nutty Putty for a very long time, even though my oldest son will easily be able to handle it in a couple of years. He could probably even handle it now. Hell, we're planning on taking him through Moonshine Wash either this fall or next spring, and that's a bit more difficult than Nutty Putty.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
BTW, don't you remember me being at Shaker's Spring has Sprung event? I got up and introduced myself and my wife to the group, and I remember you doing the same. You can't be that confused. :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by caverspencer
Udink you are reading way to much into this. Remember my original post, about the only thing you need to do is agree to were a helmet and have the light sources. The rest is legalities. You have plenty of experience in the cave and I am sure you will be apporved to lead a trip.
You are entirely right it is a political issue. SITLA does not have the resources to manage the cave, they didnt want to have to put a gate on the cave, doing all that is money taken away form our childrens education. They do not want a lawsuit and I dont want them to be sued. They tired to ignore the problem for a long time, they really dont have the resources to do anything about it. But like you said with the increase in media attention they had to do it. You only hear about a selct few of the callouts to the cave. You only heard about the three because they happened within a short period of time. What you havent heard about was all the cracked open heads, sprains and broken bones that do not require a full blown rescue. Everyone of these taxes resources, search aznd rescue is built on volunteers and the resources are slim, when you have half your crew out at nutty putty and there is an avalanche victim in the canyon what do you think that does? The number of incidents in the cave have been on a steady increase. SITLA has recieved plenty of pressure over the years, and we have worked with them to make small improvments that we ahd hoped would help like the register with safety information outside the cave. But the number of incident continues to increase.
If you want to call it a political issue go ahead, but realize SITLA is NOT public land it is private land. It is to be used to earn money by either selling or leasing the land. You should be happy the grotto saved the cave. It was either that or dump a cement truck full of cement in the entrance and then bulldoze over the top of that. Which do you think you have a better chance of getting into?
Again you are reading way too much into this. You dont have to know some secret handshake, and the grotto knows you (or atleast your website) your website is a great resource for us and telling people about nutty putty. In fact i believe it is linked from the caveutah.com website. I assure you as long as you agree to wear a helmet and have the proper lights etc you will have no problem getting into the cave.
As far as not having any first aid trainging. Please for your own sake and those you go outdoors with, go take a wilderness first aid course. we all live for adventure and coming with that comes injuries, you need to know how to survive those. Take a first aid course for your own sake. You might even want to learn how to cut your arm off incase a rock rolls shifts and traps it. Can you believe that guy?..... I dont think i could have done it.
About your kids, the rules about the 14 year olds was based on safe scouting rules. The last thing SITLA wants is a group of 12 year old scouts running through the cave. The sad part is the rescues that recieved the media attention (if I remember correctly) Chir and Chris were 17, another was 16 and the third was 23. Notice none of them under 14. Maybye we should make the cave only available to under 16 and over 25. :popcorn:
I missed out on the last 6 months or so of meetings so I dont know how the final rules were made. But I will respond to my opinion your situation with your kids though a private message.
Sorry I dont remember you from the spring event. You problaby saw I came late and sat over in the corner by chili so I really dindt have a chance to interact as much as I would like.
Nutty Putty is the only cave that me and my friends have gone into. We all have helmets, lights, and we are all over 21. However, it doesn't sound like any of us would qualify for the two leaders positions necessary for entering the caves. We are all perfectly capable of overcoming the obstacles in the cave and know how to respect this resource. Is there any way that we can get permission to enter this cave now?
Also, since every other cave in this state is gated or kept secret, how exactly would one gain leadership experience in caving? Is it now impossible for the general public to gain access because they haven't been able to explore the rest of Utah's caves?
All you ahve to do is fill out the request from that can be downloaded from the timp grotto website www.caves.org/grotto/timpgrotto If you have been there multiple times and agree to the rules you should be fine. To find out about all the toher cool caves just go to a grotto meeting, they dont bite. They dont charge you anything just to go to meetings either. They have lots of fun projects going on. If you get serious you can have the honor of exploring some very cool "virgin" caves and help map some of the deepest caves in the US. We ahve two caves over 1000' deep in utah. Two KNOWN caves that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by tallpaul
Spencer, thanks for the inside info on what went on between SILTA, Timp Grotto, UVSC, BSA, etc, and the gating of Nutty Putty Cave. I found your insight entertaining, interesting and helpful in understanding what was involved.
:popcorn:
My prediction: The nutty putty cave will go from several thousand visitors a year to less than a hundred.
If it was a better cave, that might be different. The only reason it was popular before was because it was the ONLY known cave around that you could go in without a guide or a key and that was pretty dang cool.
Real cavers that are used to getting keys and kissing butt and jumping through hoops have much much better options available than this "mickey mouse" endeavor so they won't be going there, except for maybe as a hazing for newbie initiates ("OK. Now crawl through the birth canal naked and we'll show the next handshake!" :roflol: )
Non-cavers (ie 99% of those that visited before) have much better non-cave options available for a saturday afternoon than this and for most of them, once they realize its gated, they won't even know that NP is an option, whether it is for them or not. Now that it joins the ranks of gated or guided caves, no matter how easy it is to get a key or qualify as a guide, its still a pretty big hassle and takes the spontaneity/convenience out if it that made it worthwhile before.
I for one have been there many times. In scouts, late at night with friends, on dates, I even went there with my date before prom. Its one of those places where you have to do something stupid for it to be significantly dangerous, in my opinion. Its also a place that isn't very pretty, and to me, wouldn't be worth the extra effort to get a permit to. We'd go before because it was a quick activity that was always amusing and could be done spur-of-the-moment, and was fun to show new people. Realistically, I'll likely never go back, unless maybe I become a varsity leader and i'm really stretched for idears, or if someone is really begging me to guide them through.
Sad day.
True, Nutty Putty was never a great cave, nor even a good one. Not very pretty.Quote:
If it was a better cave, that might be different.
False. There are many caves in the Wasatch, Oquirrhs, Lake Mountains, Standburys, and West Mountain.Quote:
The only reason it was popular before was because it was the ONLY known cave around that you could go in without a guide or a key and that was pretty dang cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Patterson
And that is to just a name a few of the places they can be found in Utah.....
Yes, I was just listing the closest ones.Quote:
And that is to just a name a few of the places they can be found in Utah.....
Here's a few more locations in Utah with caves that I didn't list above:
Bear River Mountains
Uinta Mountains
Sheeprock Mountains
House Range
Fish Springs Range
Cedar Mountains
Confusion Range
Deep Creek Range
Pavant Valley
Canyon Range
Pavant Range
Snow Canyon
Maragunt Plateau
Dinosaur National Monument
Should be enough to keep one busy for a lifetime. :cool2: The above are only a few locations that I actually know about. I am positive there are many more that I don't. Why anyone would even want to visit Nutty Putty more than a few times, in light of the fact that there are so many higher quality better caves around, is beyond me. :ne_nau:
If these places you mention were well known, or even moderately known, then closing Nutty Putty wouldn't even be an issue. Fact is, hardly anybody knows where these caves are that you've mentioned, or else some a**hole like me would have a website giving details about them. :haha:
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Thanks for the info, Scott and Spencer.
I would point out that while the caves you listed may be known, none are "well known" (yeah I know its semantics) to the general public, and none are so close or convenient to us Wasatch Fronters as Nutty Putty was. I may be wrong, but its not something you can get together and do with your friends on a Friday evening like NP was, and that was what made NP popular. NP was different than other real caves in that it was so close and convenient and that information was so readily and easily available on it. Chances are in a random group of 8 people in UT County, someone knows the cave and could take you there and show you around a bit. :haha: The people that go there grow exponentially, and a few rescues are bound to be required.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Patterson
Thanks for offering info on Green Eyed Monster. Never heard of it. I may take you up on the offer and email you some time when I feel like going to a cave. That isn't very often, consdidering the amount of canyoneering, and kayaking (my new hobbie) there is to be done out there... Same reason for not joining the grotto. I'm not worthy, and not enthusiastic or interested enough about caves to join their club.
Vandals suck. Big time.
GEM has been on my to do list for a long time! But I have too many hobbies too, so I haven't gotten to it!
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Sorry guys I havent been following this board much. Green Eyed Monster cave is actually on Private property and getting permission to access the cave is next to impossible. if you do go visit the cave without permission expect to return to your vehicle with a nice note or a ticket on the window.
We have been trying to come up witha solution to make the entrance to the mine more stable so that we can save the cave. Teh owner wants to through a stick of dnamite in the entrance and you can bet if he has to deal with people going out their on his land without permission he will do just that.
On the other hand if you be interested in hauling a culvert up the hill and figuring out a way to SAFELY dig out the entrance enough to get the culvert in we could save the cave.
Also if you would the landowers contact info to attempt to get permission to enter the cave let me know. but good luck getting permission.
:roflol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Patterson